Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

ER,

I read about this yesterday. The ABC article didn't mention it, but there are several groups protesting the move. I'll see if I can find the article or some other links.
 

Should have known - Fox News.
 

Let me add this. It's not that I'm concerned with hearing "Merry Christmas" from a complete stranger. It is the hypocrisy of a store profiting from Christmas yet refusing to acknowledge the reason. Probably 85 - 90% of this country celebrates Christmas in one way or another. Christmas day is a national holiday. There is no good reason to deny the Christmas season.

Merry Christmas.
 

"anticipating low attendance on what they call a family day."

Guess this is what happens when you "focus on the family."
 

I agree, ER. When the church can shut down services for the sake of convenience, and that decision is met with overwhelming silence from Christians, something is definitely wrong.

GP
 

How bout 10 minutes of silence for John Lennon.
 

The outrage is out there, ER, it just isn't seen in Liberal circles, so naturally, you haven't seen it.

Hmmm, wonder why?
 

AJBCC,

Why?
 

Mark, that was an uncalled for, ugly remark. Of course, you can't seem to separate your political view from spiritual matters, so I should not be surprised in the least. I just think it's horrible.
 

Why should the "Liberal Circles" be outraged? It seems to me that story said that the "liberal churches" will still be having services on Sunday. Not to mention of course that some liberals as well as conservatives, might be agnostic about all of this in which case those liberals might see one less meeting by a conservative megachurch as not a bad thing.
 

Ah, Trixie, I, too, have a hard time separating my spiritual views from my political ones. So, Mark is entitled. But it WAS an ugly remark. Drlobojo answered it well enough, though.
 

aj, I'm for 10 minutes of silence for Lennon. Great artist.
 

Trixie--

Mark's comment is somewhat entertaining in light of the fact that I posted this very issue on his site a couple days ago and neither him nor his like-minded brethren had one word to say about it. They did opine at length over "Happy Holidays" and being offended by the celebration of Kwanzaa.

Meanwhile, yes, it IS the mainline churches, that is, the so-called "liberal churches" -- Lutherans, United Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. -- who will be honoring the Sabbath and having church on Christmas Sunday. As usual.

So Mark's attack is ill-placed.
Again, as usual.

Peace,
GP
 

ajbcc, he's been dead 25 years. Let it go.

Mark, don't be such an asshole.

ER, Merry Christmas. Oh, I guess I could wait a couple days for that. :-)

Trixie, you up for a Mark whoopin'? :-)
 

Meh. I spent enough time fretting about Mark earlier.

And I have to chuckle at GP a bit because one thing I *would* have said, if I'd had sufficient time, was that being a Baptist or a Methodist or a Lutheran or a Presbyterian or an Episcopalian or whatever does not translate into being "conservative" or "liberal". Which is what peeved me about Mark's remark.

I don't think I really want to open another can of worms, but I can't imagine why anyone would object to the celebration of Kwanzaa either.
 

Oh, in case any clarification is necessary about my stance on the original issue: I WILL be in church on Christmas Eve (for three services: 5 p.m., 7 p.m. and midnight) and on Christmas morning.
 

Trixie, I am positive that GP meant "liberal" churches in terms of polity if not theology.

And Kwanzaa, at heart, is a black separatist movement, if you read their stuff. Or, at least a black nationalism movement, which is close enough to the same thing, even considering a broad, academic definition of "nation."

"Happy Kwanzaa," in my opinion, is akin to some ol' unreconstructed redneck wishing all a "Merry WHITE Christmas," if you know what I mean and I know you do.

Away with Kwanzaa. Up with America, with all its damn warts, moles and cankers!
 

*rolling eyes, shaking head*

We DO celebrate America, several times a year. Usually at times that are a heck of a lot warmer, like Memorial Day, the 4th of July. Or Flag Day. Or Veteran's Day. But then there's Presidents' Day in February, another cold holiday.

SO WHAT if a cultural subgroup chooses a cultural celebration? Is it all that different from stump burnings? Look at the seven principles:

Umoja (Unity)
To strive for and maintain unity in the family, community, nation and race.
Kujichagulia (Self-Determination)
To define ourselves, name ourselves, create for ourselves and speak for ourselves.
Ujima (Collective Work and Responsibility)
To build and maintain our community together and make our brother's and sister's problems our problems and to solve them together.
Ujamaa (Cooperative Economics)
To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit from them together.
Nia (Purpose)
To make our collective vocation the building and developing of our community in order to restore our people to their traditional greatness.
Kuumba (Creativity)
To do always as much as we can, in the way we can, in order to leave our community more beautiful and beneficial than we inherited it.
Imani (Faith)
To believe with all our heart in our people, our parents, our teachers, our leaders and the righteousness and victory of our struggle.

In my opinion, there is value in these. Some of these are more meaningful than parroting "family values! family values!"

Some of these positions are not vastly different from what we as Christians should espouse -- take care of each other and make the world better. Show respect to our leaders and families. Be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. You're known by the company you keep. Stand up, look people in the eye and tell them what you know and what you believe.


And speaking of celebrations, what in the WORLD is up with those guys in the Sonic commercial, celebrating the fact that they are Tatertotatarians?
 

You know what I really like? Mint Milk Chocolate KitKat bars. I got some miniature candy bars as favors for a party. Yumm these are good!
 

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to come across as "ugly". I was referring to the fact that I have seen a lot of outrage over the secularization of Christmas on Conservative sites and ER said he didn't see outrage so I assumed, since he peruses more Liberal sites than Conservative sites, that it must be why. I should know better than to make assumptions.

And by the way, on my Happy Holidays post, I made the point that it didn't offend me that people say Happy Holidays or Happy Hannukah or Happy Kwanzaa instead of Merry Christmas.

You are right, I don't separate my politics from my religion. At least, I understand that when Jesus commanded His followers to "Go into all the world, and preach the Gospel", He didn't mean go into all the world except government buildings.

Christmas is a holiday celebrated in the heart. By that I mean we all keep Christmas in our own way.

And I bet there are a lot more athiest and agnostic Liberals than Conservatives. Somebody should look up that statistic. I have no idea where to start but I bet that would be an interesting study.
 

Yeah, Mark, why don't you go get started on that study. By the way, I read your other post -- this one:

"Kwanzaa is no holiday in my opinion. It is just an invention of racists to further separate themselves from the majority of the population, who are quite happy to regard the racists as equals, but understandably reluctant to see them as superiors, as they wish."

That's a mighty friendly observation. Happy Kwanzaa!
 

Ah, ah, ah, ER. Kwanzaa is not a black separatist religion at all. It's a conscious attempt to create a specifically African-American holiday, given that unlike most of us, African-Americans were radically and violently cut off from their cultural heritage. Seeing black pride stuff as inherently separatist is more or less of a piece with seeing feminist stuff as inherently man-hating, and you know better :)

As a liberal, the reason I'm not up in arms about megachurches cancelling services is that I would never in a jillion years attend a megachurch anyway--I think they're tacky, shallow, and spiritually bereft. And Catholic churches are holding mass--in fact Xmas is, I think, the biggest church-going day for Catholics all year.
 

My church is quite excited about Christmas on Sunday. Its going to be a very special service.
 

Dear Trixie and bitch etc., Kwanzaa is not simply a harmless holiday for Blacks only it is a continuation of the Garvey "Back to Africa" movement of the 1920's and of the Black Seperatist Movements of the late 19th century. It is by definition celebrating Black Apartide. If we are an integrated society that celebrates diversity all well and good. But I can't support any element of the general society that promotes isolation and seperatism. I can not see such as a positive force for good, even though I would support its right to exist.

I've taken a few things that are directly from the
Official Kwanzaa site, and one quote from the Los
Angles Times.
I knew that Kwanzaa was a "Blacks Only" Holiday but
did not realize that it was totally an off shoot of the
1960 "Black Power" movment and the Pan Africanism of
the 1920s.
Just a few things of interest:
Back then:
The Quotable Karenga, laid out the "True Path of
Blackness."
The sevenfold path of blackness is:
1.think
black,
2.talk black,
3.act black,
4.create black,
5.buy black,
6.vote black,
7.live black,

Ron N Everett a.k.a. Maulana Karenga 1969 (founder of Kwanzaa)



And Now the updated Ph.D. version:( the (Black)paren's are mine, drlobojo)

The Seven Principles of Kwanzaa

I. UMOJA (UNITY) (oo-MOE-jah) - To strive for and
maintain unity in the(Black) family, community, nation and
race.
II. KUJICHAGULIA (SELF DETERMINATION)
(koo-jee-cha-goo-LEE-ah) - To define ourselves, name
ourselves, create for ourselves and speak for
ourselves(as Black).
III. UJIMA (COLLECTIVE WORK AND RESPONSIBILITY)
(oo-JEE-mah) - To build and maintain our(Black) community
together and to make our (Black)brothers' and sisters'
problems our problems and to solve them together.
IV. UJAMAA (COOPERATIVE ECONOMICS) (oo-JAH-mah) - To
build and maintain our own (Black)stores, shops and other
businesses and to profit together from them.
V. NIA (PURPOSE) (nee-AH) - To make as our (Black)collective
vocation the building and developing of our (Black)community
in order to restore our (Black)people to their traditional
greatness.
VI. KUUMBA (CREATIVITY) (koo-OOM-bah) - To do always
as much as we can, in the way that we can, in order to
leave our (Black)community more beautiful and beneficial than
when we inherited it.
VII. IMANI (FAITH) (ee-MAH-nee) - To believe with all
our hearts in our parents, our teachers, our leaders,
our people and the righteousness and victory of our
(Black)struggle

Dr. Maulana Karenga 2005



The Kwansa flag and colors

Origin of the Flag of Pan-Africanism and/or Black
Nationalism.
Red is for the Blood. Black is the Black
People. Green is for the Land.

Red, Black and Green are the oldest national colors
known to man. They are used as the flag of the Black
Liberation Movement in America today, but actually go
back to the Zinj Empires of ancient Africa, which
existed thousands of years before Rome, Greece,
France, England or America.

The Red, or the blood, stands as the top of all
things. We lost our land through blood; and we cannot
gain it except through blood. We must redeem our lives
through the blood. Without the shedding of blood there
can be no redemption of this race.

However, the bloodshed and sorrow will not last
always. The Red significantly stands in our flag as a
reminder of the truth of history, and that men must
gain and keep their liberty, even at the risk of
bloodshed.

The Black is in the middle. The Black man in this
hemisphere has yet to obtain land which is represented
by the Green. The acquisition of land is the highest
and noblest aspiration for the Black man on this
continent, since without land there can be no freedom,
justice, independence, or equality.
The colors were established in 1920 as the banner of
the Universal Negro Improvement Association (UNIA),
and adopted as the symbol of Africans in America at
the convention of the Negro People's of the World. It
is a symbol of the devotion of all African people to
the liberation of the African Continent, and the
establishment of a Nation in Africa ruled by
descendents of slaves from the Western World.

Pledge
WE PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE RED, BLACK, AND GREEN, OUR
FLAG, THE SYMBOL OF OUR ETERNAL STRUGGLE, AND TO THE
LAND WE MUST OBTAIN; ONE NATION OF BLACK PEOPLE, WITH
ONE GOD OF US ALL, TOTALLY UNITED IN THE STRUGGLE, FOR
BLACK LOVE, BLACK FREEDOM, AND BLACK
SELF-DETERMINATION.

Shaka Zulu where are you?
 

One more thing, I find it ironic is that Karanga chose to use Swahili as his "African" lanuage to promote Kwanzaa. Swahili was the lingua franca of the Arab marauders, slave catchers and traders of the 16th through 19th centuries.
 

This just in (via SF Gate):

Jesus Bans 'Christian' Group

excerpt:
It was, apparently, the right response. "Totally in the moment," said Buddha, nodding vigorously in agreement. "It's about time," Vishnu sighed, painting his nails beet red and lighting some Nag Champa incense. "It's decisive and it sends a message," agreed Kali, counting her poker winnings. "You guys have any hummus?" Allah muttered, rifling through Christ's well-stocked fridge and not really paying attention.

"A slight ban is definitely in order," Christ continued, calmly, now appearing in a pile of instant mashed potatoes in a truck stop in Bowling Green, Ky., where his visage appeared to be weeping, but which Jesus said was merely caused by all the onions he'd been chopping to make his famed "Holy Christ!" hot salsa for the Seraphim Christmas office party.

"Nothing serious, just maybe three, four thousand years wherein these Focus on the Family nutballs and especially this hateful Dobson fellow shall receive only sporadic blessings and deferred prayer responses and will have to go all the way to the back of the line, behind Dick Cheney and Tim LaHaye and Mel Gibson, to await salvation."

"Hell, I still love them all. Even Dobson," the One added, flashing his trademark dazzling, compassionate grin. "I just don't like them very much."

For more:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/12/09/notes120905.DTL&type=printable
 

Mark, "since he peruses more Liberal sites than Conservative sites ... " Not true. False assumption. I peruse many more apolitical sites than either righty OR lefty ones.

Drlobojob, thanks for the Kwanza facts.
 

Trixie, you took one comment off my blog to "prove", I suppose, that I am a racist. I am not. I believe all are equal, no matter what their color. Kwanzaa was created by a black man to keep the races separate. I think all races should be together. Who then, is the real racist?

Also, perhaps you shpuld have continued reading the comments on my post. This is another of the comments written by an Asian:

"The founder, Ron Karenga, is filled with hatred toward whites and hatred toward America. Karenga is nothing more than a Marxist thug.

There may be some people who may innocently practice Kwanzaa as a celebration of the African Harvest; but Marxist Karenga's Kwanzaa is about socialism and Afrocentrism. There is a Kwanzaa flag, and the pledge that goes along with it, is racist through and through:

"We pledge allegiance to the red, black, and green, our flag, the symbol of our eternal struggle, and to the land we must obtain; one nation of black people, with one God of us all, totally united in the struggle, for black love, black freedom, and black self-determination."

Kwanzaa is a political statement for the establishment of a separate black nation on the American continent. Karenga himself says, "People think it's African but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because Black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of Bloods would be partying."

He also explains that his creation of Kwanzaa in 1966, was motivated by hostilitiy toward Christianity and Judaism."
 

And Trixie, if you are going to quote me be sure you quote everything. I also said Someone saying Happy Kwanzaa doesn't offend me. If anyone wants to celebrate any other holiday at Christmas time, that's their perogative. I have no problem whatsoever with that. More power to them is what I say!

And if my church doesn't hold services on Christmas, I will take the opportunity to visit another church that day.
 

Happy holidays, Mark.
 

Why, Thank you, and a gracious Ozzie and Harriet to you, too!
 

Ah yes, there are those who read, and those who just post.
May all your Winter Solstice Sacrifices be blessed and Spring return before the food runs out.
 

Lennon was a drugged up hippy with a modicum of musical talent hardley worth worth more than a modicum of silence. The bugs are almost the most overrated band of the rock genre, the Rolling Bones edge them out slightly. George Harrison wrote a couple good tunes and the rest is LSD/heroin induced drivel nonsense.
 

Goat! You might remember the old adagte: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

And the Erudite Redneck Rule of Blogging:

"Don't blog drunk."