Wednesday, November 11, 2009
A Democratic president at war
IF we're going to stay at war in Afghanistan, then I want my president to send as much of our treasure and our materiel into Afghanistan as the previous president sent into Iraq. Or more.
President Obama is rejecting the options put before him? Good.
Send more than the generals are asking for. A lot more. Get it over with.
The Republican Party so hates government it can't even use it for the legitimate power of a legitimate war.
Send a Democrat to finish a Republican war. Again.
--ER
President Obama is rejecting the options put before him? Good.
Send more than the generals are asking for. A lot more. Get it over with.
The Republican Party so hates government it can't even use it for the legitimate power of a legitimate war.
Send a Democrat to finish a Republican war. Again.
--ER
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Bull shit to both of you.
There are less than 100 Alkiada hiding among the Taliban today.
We don't need to send our blood and treasure to a rat hole like Afghanistan. They do not want us there.
We pretend that Afghanistan is a modern nation, That's crap. They are a group of tribes left over from the 11th Century.
All of the people we should be after are gone. They're over in Pakistan.
We do not need to be killing people who do not threaten our security. Our military is worn out and over extended.
Afghanistan is not a place we should have stayed more than a year.
If we stay then let's extend our "War on Drugs" to over there and nuke the poppy fields.
Empty suit? At least he can say no to the bloody thirsty war lovers.
Bring our Children home.
There are less than 100 Alkiada hiding among the Taliban today.
We don't need to send our blood and treasure to a rat hole like Afghanistan. They do not want us there.
We pretend that Afghanistan is a modern nation, That's crap. They are a group of tribes left over from the 11th Century.
All of the people we should be after are gone. They're over in Pakistan.
We do not need to be killing people who do not threaten our security. Our military is worn out and over extended.
Afghanistan is not a place we should have stayed more than a year.
If we stay then let's extend our "War on Drugs" to over there and nuke the poppy fields.
Empty suit? At least he can say no to the bloody thirsty war lovers.
Bring our Children home.
I'm with the Dr. on this one. we're not in the business of nation building as the previous administration would have liked. Afghanistan is the rock upon which empires break. we will be no different. maybe more troops are the answer... but i don't think so. i think the answer was to pursue who we were after and that was Al Queda and Osama.
Note my preface:
"IF we're going to stay at war in Afghanistan ..."
If.
If not, bring 'em home.
If so, get it done, then bring 'em home.
That's all I'm sayin'.
"IF we're going to stay at war in Afghanistan ..."
If.
If not, bring 'em home.
If so, get it done, then bring 'em home.
That's all I'm sayin'.
"...get it done..."
Get what done?
You see, we can not get it done.
We don't even known what we want to get done. No matter what it is we want to get done, Afghanistan is not a place anything can be got done.
Besides, we do not have 40,000 extra soldiers to send. We are desperate for troops. We are sending our military into combat duty five or six time in a row. When does that end?
Staying is not an option it is national suicide, our Nation, our suicide.
Get what done?
You see, we can not get it done.
We don't even known what we want to get done. No matter what it is we want to get done, Afghanistan is not a place anything can be got done.
Besides, we do not have 40,000 extra soldiers to send. We are desperate for troops. We are sending our military into combat duty five or six time in a row. When does that end?
Staying is not an option it is national suicide, our Nation, our suicide.
As has often been the case, the US is fighting the last war instead of this current war. This time, we're doing it in Afghanistan.
Did we need to go in and disrupt terrorist networks including Al Quaeda after 9/11? No question. But they learned from that and moved on. Al Quaeda learned never to attach its operations so closely to any one locale again. So now, according to everything I've read, they're as completely independent of a bricks-and-mortar organization as amazon.com. They have cells around the world organized online rather than in any one physical place.
Yet we continue with the notion that they're holed up somewhere and that we can get them if we just find their super secret hideout. We need to stop developing military policy based on Hollywood movie plots.
Did we need to go in and disrupt terrorist networks including Al Quaeda after 9/11? No question. But they learned from that and moved on. Al Quaeda learned never to attach its operations so closely to any one locale again. So now, according to everything I've read, they're as completely independent of a bricks-and-mortar organization as amazon.com. They have cells around the world organized online rather than in any one physical place.
Yet we continue with the notion that they're holed up somewhere and that we can get them if we just find their super secret hideout. We need to stop developing military policy based on Hollywood movie plots.
If, I said, repeating myself.
I'd say that "it" -- if there really is a there there -- would be: some kind of government that respects the tribal nature of the place, sets aside schoolboy notions of democracy, and also sets aside prudish, goo-goo concepts of "corruption" -- since what we call "corruption" is the kind of grease that makes tribal "government" work and kind of tamps down intertribal violence.
I wonder how George Manypenny would approach this?
I'd say that "it" -- if there really is a there there -- would be: some kind of government that respects the tribal nature of the place, sets aside schoolboy notions of democracy, and also sets aside prudish, goo-goo concepts of "corruption" -- since what we call "corruption" is the kind of grease that makes tribal "government" work and kind of tamps down intertribal violence.
I wonder how George Manypenny would approach this?
Manypenny was dealing with "wards of the state" as the U.S.saw the tribes by that time. Afganistan would be more like the French Indian War.
Well, yeah. But Manypenny at least deal with them as tribes, and tried to do on their own socio-cultural terms, it seems like. Maybe I'm misremembering.
But I think trying to "bring democracy" to that part of the world is not much different, in spirit, than the "civilization" programs of the U.S. toward the tribes here.
But I think trying to "bring democracy" to that part of the world is not much different, in spirit, than the "civilization" programs of the U.S. toward the tribes here.
I aint a big 'policy by policy' fan of the President, but I'd likem a whole bit more if he'd stop dancin to the music what started playing a long time ago.
Rudy, I know you qualified yore comments witha 'if', but thats the hinge in this whole boondoggle.
If...the 'if' can be dismantled, then the treasure and material part is, well, immaterial. BTW, two friend-fellers what I went to skool with done got kilt by being burned up in their bradleys. Cant get no refund on that 'treasure'.
The R's is using the fineprint details of the sh*tstorm they initiated to hamstring'em into dancing to their tune...hell, turn the damn music box off!
Take the PR and political heat and do the right thing...fallout?... the voting public has the memory of a deertick...mentality doesn't lag far behind. Hell, W did bout whatever he wanted, and he got stuck in there twice.
Bomb hit some buildings in Afganistan this week...did $23 in damage.
Rudy, I know you qualified yore comments witha 'if', but thats the hinge in this whole boondoggle.
If...the 'if' can be dismantled, then the treasure and material part is, well, immaterial. BTW, two friend-fellers what I went to skool with done got kilt by being burned up in their bradleys. Cant get no refund on that 'treasure'.
The R's is using the fineprint details of the sh*tstorm they initiated to hamstring'em into dancing to their tune...hell, turn the damn music box off!
Take the PR and political heat and do the right thing...fallout?... the voting public has the memory of a deertick...mentality doesn't lag far behind. Hell, W did bout whatever he wanted, and he got stuck in there twice.
Bomb hit some buildings in Afganistan this week...did $23 in damage.
Amen Dr. Bill, Amen.
You know how you can tell Afaganistan is unsolvable?
Simple.
There ain't no Coke signs.
You can win a war with people who do not want Coke a Cola to drink.
Now that was my final take away from Nam. The NVA did drink Coke.
Yes when we abondoned Afganistan to its tribal structure and civil war the wiil harm women, hurt children, and impose unreasonable Sheria and tribal laws.
If we hate that so much then send missionaries, not our troops to save them from themselves.
Cut and run? No, stop and back out carefully.
Then send in more CocaCola bottling plants.
You know how you can tell Afaganistan is unsolvable?
Simple.
There ain't no Coke signs.
You can win a war with people who do not want Coke a Cola to drink.
Now that was my final take away from Nam. The NVA did drink Coke.
Yes when we abondoned Afganistan to its tribal structure and civil war the wiil harm women, hurt children, and impose unreasonable Sheria and tribal laws.
If we hate that so much then send missionaries, not our troops to save them from themselves.
Cut and run? No, stop and back out carefully.
Then send in more CocaCola bottling plants.
Sigh. My "if" is rhetorically and morally weak, I know.
When the "wood, hay and stubble" of my life is finally burned away, the last thing to go will probably be my penchant for violence. I swear I don't have to work to come up with it. It is an inherent redneck trait, I think. Sigh.
When the "wood, hay and stubble" of my life is finally burned away, the last thing to go will probably be my penchant for violence. I swear I don't have to work to come up with it. It is an inherent redneck trait, I think. Sigh.
"You can['t] win a war with people who do not want Coke a Cola to drink."
Yes, but when a people start allowing Coca-Cola in, it's always followed decades of imperial presence and violent conflict.
What DrLBJ says about the state of the Afghanistan, though, is crucial. Unlike Iraq, there is absolutely no history of mythology of a national civilization. As Rory Stewart has been saying, Afghanistan is like Pakistan of two hundred years ago. There is not enough cultural material of any kind on which to build a nation-state.
This is why the simple notion of an "Afghanistan" itself does not, in the substantial way needed in this context, exist. No wonder it cannot be lead into progress. It does not exist yet. And the U.S. cannot create it with military.
Yes, but when a people start allowing Coca-Cola in, it's always followed decades of imperial presence and violent conflict.
What DrLBJ says about the state of the Afghanistan, though, is crucial. Unlike Iraq, there is absolutely no history of mythology of a national civilization. As Rory Stewart has been saying, Afghanistan is like Pakistan of two hundred years ago. There is not enough cultural material of any kind on which to build a nation-state.
This is why the simple notion of an "Afghanistan" itself does not, in the substantial way needed in this context, exist. No wonder it cannot be lead into progress. It does not exist yet. And the U.S. cannot create it with military.
Point being if you can't bottle and distribute Coca Cola then you can sell anything-product- religion-dmeocracy-govenment etc..
Coca-Colais the current sign for "civilization be here".
Coca-Colais the current sign for "civilization be here".
I fully get how Coca-cola is an avatar here. But it is not an avatar for "civilization" per se. It is an avatar for Western civilization: notions of political democracy as a platform for economic freedom.
But, ala Vietnam, or any colonized peace, the coca-cola of western ideologies will only be wanted or allowed after a lot of blood is spilled. Look at North Korea for the alternate path.
But, ala Vietnam, or any colonized peace, the coca-cola of western ideologies will only be wanted or allowed after a lot of blood is spilled. Look at North Korea for the alternate path.
I don't know if I would raise Coke to the level of Avatar, rather more like a symptom I'd say, and yes I was assuming that we are treating everything in terms of "western civilization" in our efforts convert the world into Nebraska.
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