Saturday, April 04, 2009
Neil on 'The Power of Satan'
By Neil
It was with great sadness that I learned that a theologically liberal blogger was going to spend many, many thousands of dollars and countless hours going to some form of seminary. I grieve for him and how he will spread his false teachings to a broader audience and I grieve for those he will mislead. What a waste.
Read it all.
--ER
It was with great sadness that I learned that a theologically liberal blogger was going to spend many, many thousands of dollars and countless hours going to some form of seminary. I grieve for him and how he will spread his false teachings to a broader audience and I grieve for those he will mislead. What a waste.
Read it all.
--ER
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I read it all.
Sometimes it is difficult for me to contain my anger when I read, listen to or come in contact with people who are convinced that their beliefs are the only "true way" and the only reason that someone doesn't agree with them is due to the fact that they haven't been shown the truth.
I trust or hope that you are not discouraged by Neil's comments. You should be more convinced than ever that the course that you have selected is right for you, your relationship with God and your fellow man.
mr bbs
Sometimes it is difficult for me to contain my anger when I read, listen to or come in contact with people who are convinced that their beliefs are the only "true way" and the only reason that someone doesn't agree with them is due to the fact that they haven't been shown the truth.
I trust or hope that you are not discouraged by Neil's comments. You should be more convinced than ever that the course that you have selected is right for you, your relationship with God and your fellow man.
mr bbs
# posted by 
: 7:18 AM
: 7:18 AM
Stunned. A little bit irked at the misrepresentation of ideas I've expressed (I've said I tend toward universalism, and I've never said only parts of the Bible are inspired; it's that he has one rigid definition of "inspired" and I have a more flexible definition of "inspired").
Discouraged? Maybe for about a half-minute. Then heartened.
Have you been to that De-Conversion blog? It's not for the weak of heart, and frankly, I don't actually recommend anyone going there unless they truly want to embrace their skepticism or truly are considering "deconverting." Most of those peeps seem to have once been exactly the kind of peep Neil is today.
And, while I'm sure they would rail and rant and scream and holler, I'm convinced that the de-cons, like serious, diehard "evangelical" never-have-believed-much atheists, are closer to God than half or more of the professing Christians in this country.
And when, or if, the decons regain, or the atheists ever gain, any hint of the Godness of God and the love of Christ, do you think the Neils will be standing near them ready to welcome them into the full reality of God's Grace? No.
Could be, may be, that's the very mission field to which I feel called, assuming my own faith survives the gauntlet.
And, thanks.
Discouraged? Maybe for about a half-minute. Then heartened.
Have you been to that De-Conversion blog? It's not for the weak of heart, and frankly, I don't actually recommend anyone going there unless they truly want to embrace their skepticism or truly are considering "deconverting." Most of those peeps seem to have once been exactly the kind of peep Neil is today.
And, while I'm sure they would rail and rant and scream and holler, I'm convinced that the de-cons, like serious, diehard "evangelical" never-have-believed-much atheists, are closer to God than half or more of the professing Christians in this country.
And when, or if, the decons regain, or the atheists ever gain, any hint of the Godness of God and the love of Christ, do you think the Neils will be standing near them ready to welcome them into the full reality of God's Grace? No.
Could be, may be, that's the very mission field to which I feel called, assuming my own faith survives the gauntlet.
And, thanks.
Discouraged? Hardly. It was funny, really. Even funnier were the comments. None of what was written was either new or surprising. What did you expect, after all? A hearty farewell and good luck?
This is Neil we are talking about. He can't help himself. He has his "faith", and his little amen corner, and I wish him well. It really has nothing to do with me, nor should it with you, one way or another.
This is Neil we are talking about. He can't help himself. He has his "faith", and his little amen corner, and I wish him well. It really has nothing to do with me, nor should it with you, one way or another.
Neil's blog reminds me of this oldie-but-a-goodie:
The End is no longer near. It's happened. Everybody who is going to heaven is there.
A bunch of Baptists see a bunch of Catholics at the arrival gate and, each being totally floored to see the others "made it," they all embrace and hug and carry on and laugh at their earthly differences.
St. Peter meets them and leads them down a wide hallway, I reckon to the banquet hall wherein the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is fixin' to take place.
A ways down the hall, Peter shushes the merry-makers, asks them to be real quiet and to tiptoe past a big door through which everybody can hear some holy hubbub goin' on.
On the other side, after Peter allows as to how they can all resume their huggin' and laughin' and carryin' on, some of the Baptists and Catholics ask St. Peter who that was on the other side of the door and why they had to be quiet.
And Peter said: "Oh, that's the Church of Christ. They still think they're the only ones here."
The End is no longer near. It's happened. Everybody who is going to heaven is there.
A bunch of Baptists see a bunch of Catholics at the arrival gate and, each being totally floored to see the others "made it," they all embrace and hug and carry on and laugh at their earthly differences.
St. Peter meets them and leads them down a wide hallway, I reckon to the banquet hall wherein the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is fixin' to take place.
A ways down the hall, Peter shushes the merry-makers, asks them to be real quiet and to tiptoe past a big door through which everybody can hear some holy hubbub goin' on.
On the other side, after Peter allows as to how they can all resume their huggin' and laughin' and carryin' on, some of the Baptists and Catholics ask St. Peter who that was on the other side of the door and why they had to be quiet.
And Peter said: "Oh, that's the Church of Christ. They still think they're the only ones here."
OK, this is a hoot.
I went looking for that joke, and googled "they still think they're the only ones here" -- and one of the first hit was in comments on a post at Mark's blog where I was once reminded of that joke there and told it!
I'm consistent. Neil's consistent. Mark's consistent. We each have our paths.
I went looking for that joke, and googled "they still think they're the only ones here" -- and one of the first hit was in comments on a post at Mark's blog where I was once reminded of that joke there and told it!
I'm consistent. Neil's consistent. Mark's consistent. We each have our paths.
I've never had a high opinion of Neil's posts, this hasn't helped matters.
By the way, ER, I hope you enjoy the seminary. Might be a little weird for an atheist like myself to say that, but even so.
By the way, ER, I hope you enjoy the seminary. Might be a little weird for an atheist like myself to say that, but even so.
What a waste, he says?
What an ass.
Why any grown adult would waste the electrons railing against your going to seminary is beyond me. Maybe we should all pitch in and buy him some pattern books for needlepoint or whatever it is uptight little prisses like him get up to these days.
Lord, save us from the busybodies, fusspots, tattletales and scolds.
In other words, consider the source.
What an ass.
Why any grown adult would waste the electrons railing against your going to seminary is beyond me. Maybe we should all pitch in and buy him some pattern books for needlepoint or whatever it is uptight little prisses like him get up to these days.
Lord, save us from the busybodies, fusspots, tattletales and scolds.
In other words, consider the source.
So Neal cherry picked and quoted II Corinthians 11:13-15 but of course took it out of context and misunderstood the point. If he had read the chapter he would find it some what different. The next few verses read:
II Corinthians 11:16
I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting.
17
In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.
18
Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19
You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
20
In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
21
To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!
So Neil goes the second mile, turns the other check: Not. You say that "Neil" may very well be your mission field. Perhaps so. Jesus after all did hang in the taverns and honky tonks of his age. His disciples were after all the truck drivers, politicians, day laborers and scam artist of his age. Heck, Jesus earned his living as a construction contractor for all but a year or two of his life.
Every age requires a view of Christ sufficient to its needs. The correct view of Christ will not be known with this equipment we currently have. So showing the "Psyche" of the world a better path would be a tough calling indeed. Even Paul said, " To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!"
II Corinthians 11:16
I repeat: Let no one take me for a fool. But if you do, then receive me just as you would a fool, so that I may do a little boasting.
17
In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.
18
Since many are boasting in the way the world does, I too will boast. 19
You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise!
20
In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or pushes himself forward or slaps you in the face.
21
To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!
So Neil goes the second mile, turns the other check: Not. You say that "Neil" may very well be your mission field. Perhaps so. Jesus after all did hang in the taverns and honky tonks of his age. His disciples were after all the truck drivers, politicians, day laborers and scam artist of his age. Heck, Jesus earned his living as a construction contractor for all but a year or two of his life.
Every age requires a view of Christ sufficient to its needs. The correct view of Christ will not be known with this equipment we currently have. So showing the "Psyche" of the world a better path would be a tough calling indeed. Even Paul said, " To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!"
Well, I meant the Neils might be a mission field after they collapse under the weight of their own selves, and yet still show some signs of life spiritually, despite having been stripped of most of the things they thought they knew. Which describes most of the members of the church I serve as a deacon, I'd say. And Neil is nowhere near that. He may die happy, for what that's worth.
So, what your take on that whole passage from Paul? WTH is a "false teacher"? And how the hell can Neil or anyone apply that to me when I shout from the bloggy mountaintops that trusting God through Christ, and trying to live thusly, is thing? ... OK, forget that last part. What's your take on what Paul was talking about, in context?
"So, what your take on that whole passage from Paul? WTH is a "false teacher"?"
Well now, Paul can be read as both an Apostle of the Orthodox brand as well as one of the Gnostic brand.
So in the Orthodox sense Paul's warning about false teachers are those who came to Corinth pushing the Jewish Jesus under the law concept. You got to go Jewish to get to heaven etc. Thus the split between the Ebonite types in Jerusalem and the Gentile types elsewhere.
From the Gnostic viewpoint Paul's warning is about those false teachers trying to tie you to the laws and ways of the Lord of this world rather than letting you grow free with the gnosis of the Logos and become the elect of the uber-God who are free from all law.
Now in Neil's case you would be the false prophet saying look to the spirit and basic foundation of what Christ meant us to be. Although you may believe the Bible to be in inspired of God it is falible. Which means you are not a "Bible Believer" as Neil is. You see alternate paths to Christ's Truth and Neil sees only one. Unless you know and teach the path that he knows then you are a false teacher.
See: David Koresh, Jim Jones, et. al.
Now about waiting till the cows come home and then trying to get them to not become unbelievers:
You have to get the Neils way before that, otherwise when their paper idol disolves then they have no ground to stand on and leave the Kingdom completely.
Paul would say we meet them where they are and lead them from there.
Now that would be a tough life and Paul commended the Corinthians for taking that way. But why spend the effort, after all if they are all eventually going to heaven anyway why not just let them wander in the swamp until the get there? Now that's a real thological question.
Well now, Paul can be read as both an Apostle of the Orthodox brand as well as one of the Gnostic brand.
So in the Orthodox sense Paul's warning about false teachers are those who came to Corinth pushing the Jewish Jesus under the law concept. You got to go Jewish to get to heaven etc. Thus the split between the Ebonite types in Jerusalem and the Gentile types elsewhere.
From the Gnostic viewpoint Paul's warning is about those false teachers trying to tie you to the laws and ways of the Lord of this world rather than letting you grow free with the gnosis of the Logos and become the elect of the uber-God who are free from all law.
Now in Neil's case you would be the false prophet saying look to the spirit and basic foundation of what Christ meant us to be. Although you may believe the Bible to be in inspired of God it is falible. Which means you are not a "Bible Believer" as Neil is. You see alternate paths to Christ's Truth and Neil sees only one. Unless you know and teach the path that he knows then you are a false teacher.
See: David Koresh, Jim Jones, et. al.
Now about waiting till the cows come home and then trying to get them to not become unbelievers:
You have to get the Neils way before that, otherwise when their paper idol disolves then they have no ground to stand on and leave the Kingdom completely.
Paul would say we meet them where they are and lead them from there.
Now that would be a tough life and Paul commended the Corinthians for taking that way. But why spend the effort, after all if they are all eventually going to heaven anyway why not just let them wander in the swamp until the get there? Now that's a real thological question.
Vintage Neil. Smugly circular, an exercise in empty semantics and snide self-perpetuation. Bah.
His arguments are like a clanging gong. He is comfortable in his little fort of words. Let him huddle there.
His arguments are like a clanging gong. He is comfortable in his little fort of words. Let him huddle there.
Also, does anyone think it is funny that he referances a universalist "heretic" (C.S. Lewis)in his condemnation of universalist "heresy"?
I keep thinking I want to correct his mischaracterizations of me, but ... so far I haven't been able to care enough to do so.
You've got enough other fish to fry. Shake the dust from your sandals with him and move on. You'll never change his mind. He will never change yours. The end.
And is mysogis a word? Too close to mysoginist for my liking! (word verification.)
And is mysogis a word? Too close to mysoginist for my liking! (word verification.)
The world, and the innerwebs, are far too great and glorious to spend 30 seconds worrying about disagreeable people. Focus on what's good and right for you and leave the rest behind. You can't focus on your future if you get bogged down with those who are bent on keeping you from it.
Funny, you might want to read this post.
Coexist: Does the moderate voice fan the flames of the extremist mind? March 25 2009.
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Coexist: Does the moderate voice fan the flames of the extremist mind? March 25 2009.
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