Monday, August 18, 2008
'As Bob is my witless!'*
In a dream, I dreamed ...
Someone was grilling me over the pluralistic, y'all-ALL-come approach I have regarding the church and God and stuff, which was always nascent but only fully bloomed with the epiphany that came courtesy of the UCC's infamous "Bouncer" ad.
Havin' been a bouncer, havin' turned people away and havin' helped toss people out of a dancehall, it hit me hard. I wept over the notion that I could possibly have any inkling about any other human bean's relationship with anyone else, let alone God and 42.
And I repented, and I profess today that I continue to repent, of judgmentalism -- although I am obliged to admit that I still carry some of the trappings of the culture in which I grew up.
In other words, put me in a place where I am the only person like myself and I will be uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable is not wrong. Acting out because of it can be.
In the dream, someone challenged me: "What if, because of you, someone, some homo, goes to hell because you failed to warn them of their sin?"
And in the dream, I said: "My actions or words can no more condemn someone to hell than they can send someone to heaven. My responsibility as a Christian is to BE, to LOVE, and to be as honest as I can be about everything -- what I believe, what I used to believe, the fact that I may very well believe something else eventually, and my belief that beliefs don't really have that much to do with one's relationship with God or others. What matters is one's relationship with others, which is the only really practical way we can worship, praise God, commune with God or do much else that matters."
The someone said: "But what about the Great Commission? How else will souls be saved? How will they believe unless they hear? How will they hear unless there is a preacher?"
And I said: "I think we're saying the same thing: I HAVE to hold open the door to church and God to ALL. That IS my witness. Besides, whose soul do you think is being saved, healed, strengthened by the execution of the Great Commission? The hearers? Sure, to an extent, as God wills. But the main blessing comes to the one willing to stand and be counted, to strive to live faith, not just talk about it, to try to let God's love touch others through oneself -- by helping, giving cold cups of water, hugs and friendship in Jesus's name, acceptance of those who are different, also and especially in Jesus's name, and so on -- and to be honest in all things, especially doubts."
Discuss. Or not. It's what I dreamed.
PRAYER OF CONFESSION at church, the church home of "Free Tibet" protestor Kelly Osbourne.
Lord of Life, sometimes we think we have everything figured out, and that we are just a little smarter, and a little better than the "other guys." We take our enormous blessings for granted, and forget that when we put others down, we betray the gift of faith itself. There but for the grace of God go all of us. Help us to come together and to value one another for the gifts we all possess, and the worthiness that is our true birthright. In Christ's name we pray, Amen.
--ER
*Quoth Tommy, Rugrat
Someone was grilling me over the pluralistic, y'all-ALL-come approach I have regarding the church and God and stuff, which was always nascent but only fully bloomed with the epiphany that came courtesy of the UCC's infamous "Bouncer" ad.
Havin' been a bouncer, havin' turned people away and havin' helped toss people out of a dancehall, it hit me hard. I wept over the notion that I could possibly have any inkling about any other human bean's relationship with anyone else, let alone God and 42.
And I repented, and I profess today that I continue to repent, of judgmentalism -- although I am obliged to admit that I still carry some of the trappings of the culture in which I grew up.
In other words, put me in a place where I am the only person like myself and I will be uncomfortable. But being uncomfortable is not wrong. Acting out because of it can be.
In the dream, someone challenged me: "What if, because of you, someone, some homo, goes to hell because you failed to warn them of their sin?"
And in the dream, I said: "My actions or words can no more condemn someone to hell than they can send someone to heaven. My responsibility as a Christian is to BE, to LOVE, and to be as honest as I can be about everything -- what I believe, what I used to believe, the fact that I may very well believe something else eventually, and my belief that beliefs don't really have that much to do with one's relationship with God or others. What matters is one's relationship with others, which is the only really practical way we can worship, praise God, commune with God or do much else that matters."
The someone said: "But what about the Great Commission? How else will souls be saved? How will they believe unless they hear? How will they hear unless there is a preacher?"
And I said: "I think we're saying the same thing: I HAVE to hold open the door to church and God to ALL. That IS my witness. Besides, whose soul do you think is being saved, healed, strengthened by the execution of the Great Commission? The hearers? Sure, to an extent, as God wills. But the main blessing comes to the one willing to stand and be counted, to strive to live faith, not just talk about it, to try to let God's love touch others through oneself -- by helping, giving cold cups of water, hugs and friendship in Jesus's name, acceptance of those who are different, also and especially in Jesus's name, and so on -- and to be honest in all things, especially doubts."
Discuss. Or not. It's what I dreamed.
PRAYER OF CONFESSION at church, the church home of "Free Tibet" protestor Kelly Osbourne.
Lord of Life, sometimes we think we have everything figured out, and that we are just a little smarter, and a little better than the "other guys." We take our enormous blessings for granted, and forget that when we put others down, we betray the gift of faith itself. There but for the grace of God go all of us. Help us to come together and to value one another for the gifts we all possess, and the worthiness that is our true birthright. In Christ's name we pray, Amen.
--ER
*Quoth Tommy, Rugrat
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First, it sounds like you are wrestling with your own change of perspective. Nothing wrong with that; the questions your dream-questioners ask are those your old self may well have asked someone like your new self. That's my non-trained dream analysis, anyway.
Second, your approach is rooted in your very Baptist conviction that there should be no test for being in Church (remember, Roger Williams fled Massachusetts Bay for Rhode Island because of the stringent requirements the colony set on church membership/citizen participation). The only difference today is the exclusionary rules apply to an ever-dwindling number of persons, unidentifiable by any outward characteristic (unless, that is, there are people who can look at someone and just know they're gay).
I never understood the whole "saving souls" thing myself. Since there's nothing in the Bible about it, and the point has always seemed to be about living a life in service to others, not worrying about some kind of insurance policy that keeps me (ME!! ME!! ME!!!!!) from going to hell, that part of it has always escaped me. Furthermore, since along with all that is the conviction, held since I was a child and only reinforced by reading theology, that salvation is something God does for us for Divine reasons, not out of any inherent quality we possess either as individuals or as a species, I'm not quite sure how getting the word out about Jesus "saves" anybody.
The Great Commission has never been about "saving souls". It has been about spreading the word the God loves us; this love was manifest in Jesus of Nazareth, who demonstrated this love in his ministry, and most clearly in his death as an innocent man; and, we are called to live likewise, to serve the world because God loves it, and us, and we are not to think of ourselves, but of others.
Now, I realize that mine is a minority position on all sorts of issues, and I wouldn't be surprised is this or that Bible verse is tossed at me, along with the question that says, in effect, "What about that? Huh?" All I can say about "that" is the Bible says all sorts of things, some of them contradictory, which is why we must also use our experience, our reason, and our understanding of the tradition to figure it all out.
I think your dream is a testament to your faithful, and faith-filled, struggle to live a new life in a whole new way. I do not criticize those who believe as your dream-interlocutors did, as some of our current on-line interlocutors still do. That is their understanding of the Christian faith and life. My only desire is that they not demand conformity to their way as the only way to be considered a Christian. I don't hold my views as monolithic; I only ask the same courtesy in return.
Second, your approach is rooted in your very Baptist conviction that there should be no test for being in Church (remember, Roger Williams fled Massachusetts Bay for Rhode Island because of the stringent requirements the colony set on church membership/citizen participation). The only difference today is the exclusionary rules apply to an ever-dwindling number of persons, unidentifiable by any outward characteristic (unless, that is, there are people who can look at someone and just know they're gay).
I never understood the whole "saving souls" thing myself. Since there's nothing in the Bible about it, and the point has always seemed to be about living a life in service to others, not worrying about some kind of insurance policy that keeps me (ME!! ME!! ME!!!!!) from going to hell, that part of it has always escaped me. Furthermore, since along with all that is the conviction, held since I was a child and only reinforced by reading theology, that salvation is something God does for us for Divine reasons, not out of any inherent quality we possess either as individuals or as a species, I'm not quite sure how getting the word out about Jesus "saves" anybody.
The Great Commission has never been about "saving souls". It has been about spreading the word the God loves us; this love was manifest in Jesus of Nazareth, who demonstrated this love in his ministry, and most clearly in his death as an innocent man; and, we are called to live likewise, to serve the world because God loves it, and us, and we are not to think of ourselves, but of others.
Now, I realize that mine is a minority position on all sorts of issues, and I wouldn't be surprised is this or that Bible verse is tossed at me, along with the question that says, in effect, "What about that? Huh?" All I can say about "that" is the Bible says all sorts of things, some of them contradictory, which is why we must also use our experience, our reason, and our understanding of the tradition to figure it all out.
I think your dream is a testament to your faithful, and faith-filled, struggle to live a new life in a whole new way. I do not criticize those who believe as your dream-interlocutors did, as some of our current on-line interlocutors still do. That is their understanding of the Christian faith and life. My only desire is that they not demand conformity to their way as the only way to be considered a Christian. I don't hold my views as monolithic; I only ask the same courtesy in return.
"In the dream, someone challenged me: 'What if, because of you, someone, some homo, goes to hell because you failed to warn them of their sin?'"
Meh.
That's why it's nice being a Calvinist. Such questions are, by definition, meaningless. :)
Meh.
That's why it's nice being a Calvinist. Such questions are, by definition, meaningless. :)
GKS, Amen to yer take on the Great Commission. If I'm wrstling with anything, it's with growing up with the Great Commission largely being stuff you said, and now believing it's largely stuff you do.
Just for Alan: "Ow! I just poked myself in the eye. Glad that's over!" :-) Hee hee.
Just for Alan: "Ow! I just poked myself in the eye. Glad that's over!" :-) Hee hee.
Hey, Google "The Sword of the Lord" and Wikipedia. In my Gospel radio days, brief, but formative, I got some of this stuff on me. :-)
One thing I was never able to understand about the whole "It's your fault if you dn't speak and they go to hell" argument:
1) God makes homosexuality a mortal sin.
2) God orders people to stone homosexuals to death, nothing said about witnessing to them.
3) God causes people to be born gay ("Knitted them together in their mother's wombs")
and suddenly, we get to 4) where I am responsible if they go to hell?
(shakes head)
1) God makes homosexuality a mortal sin.
2) God orders people to stone homosexuals to death, nothing said about witnessing to them.
3) God causes people to be born gay ("Knitted them together in their mother's wombs")
and suddenly, we get to 4) where I am responsible if they go to hell?
(shakes head)
# posted by 
: 7:10 AM
: 7:10 AM
"Then someone said: "But what about the Great Commission? How else will souls be saved? How will they believe unless they hear? How will they hear unless there is a preacher?"
I have wrasteled that one for most of my life. I once molded my life and future based on it. Then after the intervention of war and death, as well as some on site experience with SB missionaries I did go that way.
"The Call" didn't make much sense as my knowledge of God grew. It takes a small human like God to do small human like things. I think God is somewhat larger than that.
I have wrasteled that one for most of my life. I once molded my life and future based on it. Then after the intervention of war and death, as well as some on site experience with SB missionaries I did go that way.
"The Call" didn't make much sense as my knowledge of God grew. It takes a small human like God to do small human like things. I think God is somewhat larger than that.
I ment to say: Then after the intervention of war and death, as well as some on site experience with SB missionaries I did NOT go that way.
I think Teresa's No. 3 is the fulcrum of this here teeter-totter. *They* say it's behavior only; *we* say it's innate.
DrLobo: As I continue to let God be God, my concept of The Calls has become this: We all have The Call -- to love God, and to love neighbor, and to love ourselves.
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DrLobo: As I continue to let God be God, my concept of The Calls has become this: We all have The Call -- to love God, and to love neighbor, and to love ourselves.
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