Friday, June 06, 2008
O damn, Obama!
Saddened, still, at Sen. Barack Obama abandoning his church. After all the crap thrown on him over the Rev. Jeremiah Wright's rhetorical excesses, he up and quits over the smart-ass remarks of a guest preacher?
Gah.
On the Christian right (Hi, EL!), waaaay over there, they're licking their chops, and being more antibiblically judgmental than ever. I mean, sure, judge his integrity, and his guts, because that's what I'm doing. But EL and his ilk continue to judge the veracity of his faith itself, and that is repugnant and wrong.
As I said at EL's place, ignoring his bile:
Of course, I think much less of Obama for quitting his church! A church is NOT its pastor -- although, until the episode at the National Press Club, I had no gripe against Wright. And a church is surely not a guest preacher! Further, I watched the clip of the priest's alleged offense and came away thinking WTH? It's harshness with humor and truth!
Obama quit his chuirch for political expediency. That's all. It takes expediency to succeed in politics, I guess, but I sure don't like it, and I sure think much less of him for doing so. It is a shame on so many levels it makes my heart ache.
On the Christian left (Hi, Geoffrey!), which is as close as my elbow, they're hurting and cussing over the caricature that EL and other righties -- as well as others -- have made of Trinity United Church of Christ and what it's about. (The Rev. Wright did show his ass at the National Press Club, but he had retired from the pulpit by then. Stupid thing to do. But it NOT THE CHURCH that did it.)
As I said at Geoffrey's place:
Obama is no idiot. Obama is, however, making hasty decisions, which makes me hope that if he is president he will surround himself with experience.
It's his vision, and his heretofore demonstrated willingness to be daring, that attract me to him. It hurts me, and makes me think less of him, that he quit his church. Because his church is not just its pastor, past or present, or a guest speaker, or any one short-sighted decision, or one guest speaker -- and THAT is the "teaching moment" that is now lost, sacrificed at the altar of expediency.
His quitting, God help him, gives credence to the Rev. Wright's assertion that Obama is just another politician. I knew he was was. Of course, he is. Of course he has to be, to be elected under present circumstances.
And damned if Obama himself, by his quitting, hasen't extended the present circumstances.
As for my beloved UCC: Look out! Live by the spotlight, die by the spotlight!
Ah, call it holy water under the bridge.
Time to celebrate, such as it is, with Dan at Payne Hollow, and offer congratulations to Sen. Obama and stoke our hope for better days ahead.
Time to gird our loins for the showdown, as it were, with the old-soldier-first, the honorable but outdated Sen. John McCain, and work to rekindle hard-nosed, hard-assed diplomacy.
As I said at EL's place, after his ludicrous rant over what he sees as Obama's "limp-wristed disarmament" views, and EL's shock that we should actually dust off diplomacy and try it for a change:
Has it occurred to anyone besides me that, after blowing and blustering around the Middle East for so long, that the only damn way to get ANY traction over there is to damn near start over -- give 'em enough rope to hang themselves? I mean, if the president of the United States actually dared to sit down across a table from Aminiwhathis-ahad in Iran, mano a mano, eye to eye, giving NOTHING but an ear, and then have Aminiwhathis keep doing what he appears to be doing -- do you think any nation on earth not Iran or a lackey would object if THEN the U.S. kicked Iran ass and took names? Same with the Venezuelan megalomaniac. Same with all of them.
Does anyone think that if we DON'T calm down, rachet the rhetoric down, and sit down with these yahoos, whose infuence and power rests within the vacuum created by the U.S.'s diplomatic ABSENCE -- does anyone think continuing on the way we're going is the way to strategic strength for the U.S., and more peace rather than less in the world?
Pshaw on y'all neo-post-modern-would-be-warrior-faux-conservatives, or whatever you are.
Could anyone have imagined what George W. Bush has wrought, based on his campaigning? On his governership in Texas? No.
Obama's youth and vision are his strength. He's going to be elected. And he's going to have some experience in his administration; they're gonna take diplomacy, and some hard-nosed, hard-assed diplomats out of mothballs, and we ARE going to do things RIGHT on the geo-political stage for a change. We are more than likely going to be in wars in places we've never even heard of, no matter who is president.
But I am so damned tired of shooting first and asking questions later. I WANT this country's president to sit down with those jerks. Rather than build them up, they will shrink back to their actual size vis-a-vis this country, once that vaccuum is gone. And then -- and *then* if they pose actual threats to us, we can war with them in good conscience, and with most of the rest of the world either cheering us on or being quiet while we do what we've got to do!
--ER
Gah.
On the Christian right (Hi, EL!), waaaay over there, they're licking their chops, and being more antibiblically judgmental than ever. I mean, sure, judge his integrity, and his guts, because that's what I'm doing. But EL and his ilk continue to judge the veracity of his faith itself, and that is repugnant and wrong.
As I said at EL's place, ignoring his bile:
Of course, I think much less of Obama for quitting his church! A church is NOT its pastor -- although, until the episode at the National Press Club, I had no gripe against Wright. And a church is surely not a guest preacher! Further, I watched the clip of the priest's alleged offense and came away thinking WTH? It's harshness with humor and truth!
Obama quit his chuirch for political expediency. That's all. It takes expediency to succeed in politics, I guess, but I sure don't like it, and I sure think much less of him for doing so. It is a shame on so many levels it makes my heart ache.
On the Christian left (Hi, Geoffrey!), which is as close as my elbow, they're hurting and cussing over the caricature that EL and other righties -- as well as others -- have made of Trinity United Church of Christ and what it's about. (The Rev. Wright did show his ass at the National Press Club, but he had retired from the pulpit by then. Stupid thing to do. But it NOT THE CHURCH that did it.)
As I said at Geoffrey's place:
Obama is no idiot. Obama is, however, making hasty decisions, which makes me hope that if he is president he will surround himself with experience.
It's his vision, and his heretofore demonstrated willingness to be daring, that attract me to him. It hurts me, and makes me think less of him, that he quit his church. Because his church is not just its pastor, past or present, or a guest speaker, or any one short-sighted decision, or one guest speaker -- and THAT is the "teaching moment" that is now lost, sacrificed at the altar of expediency.
His quitting, God help him, gives credence to the Rev. Wright's assertion that Obama is just another politician. I knew he was was. Of course, he is. Of course he has to be, to be elected under present circumstances.
And damned if Obama himself, by his quitting, hasen't extended the present circumstances.
As for my beloved UCC: Look out! Live by the spotlight, die by the spotlight!
Ah, call it holy water under the bridge.
Time to celebrate, such as it is, with Dan at Payne Hollow, and offer congratulations to Sen. Obama and stoke our hope for better days ahead.
Time to gird our loins for the showdown, as it were, with the old-soldier-first, the honorable but outdated Sen. John McCain, and work to rekindle hard-nosed, hard-assed diplomacy.
As I said at EL's place, after his ludicrous rant over what he sees as Obama's "limp-wristed disarmament" views, and EL's shock that we should actually dust off diplomacy and try it for a change:
Has it occurred to anyone besides me that, after blowing and blustering around the Middle East for so long, that the only damn way to get ANY traction over there is to damn near start over -- give 'em enough rope to hang themselves? I mean, if the president of the United States actually dared to sit down across a table from Aminiwhathis-ahad in Iran, mano a mano, eye to eye, giving NOTHING but an ear, and then have Aminiwhathis keep doing what he appears to be doing -- do you think any nation on earth not Iran or a lackey would object if THEN the U.S. kicked Iran ass and took names? Same with the Venezuelan megalomaniac. Same with all of them.
Does anyone think that if we DON'T calm down, rachet the rhetoric down, and sit down with these yahoos, whose infuence and power rests within the vacuum created by the U.S.'s diplomatic ABSENCE -- does anyone think continuing on the way we're going is the way to strategic strength for the U.S., and more peace rather than less in the world?
Pshaw on y'all neo-post-modern-would-be-warrior-faux-conservatives, or whatever you are.
Could anyone have imagined what George W. Bush has wrought, based on his campaigning? On his governership in Texas? No.
Obama's youth and vision are his strength. He's going to be elected. And he's going to have some experience in his administration; they're gonna take diplomacy, and some hard-nosed, hard-assed diplomats out of mothballs, and we ARE going to do things RIGHT on the geo-political stage for a change. We are more than likely going to be in wars in places we've never even heard of, no matter who is president.
But I am so damned tired of shooting first and asking questions later. I WANT this country's president to sit down with those jerks. Rather than build them up, they will shrink back to their actual size vis-a-vis this country, once that vaccuum is gone. And then -- and *then* if they pose actual threats to us, we can war with them in good conscience, and with most of the rest of the world either cheering us on or being quiet while we do what we've got to do!
--ER
Comments:
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So who thanks Obama is a closet atheist?
Quickly runs for cover…
Look, I have no idea – know so little about him… just ‘quitting’ a church seems odd. Don’t know the story of course
Lee
Quickly runs for cover…
Look, I have no idea – know so little about him… just ‘quitting’ a church seems odd. Don’t know the story of course
Lee
First, thank you for the link. Yeah, I'm with you in being pretty disappointed in Obama for falling down on this one. As if, somehow, he didn't know Jeremiah Wright's theological position! Bah! As if ELAshley or anyone else on the right would vote for Obama no matter what he did, or those on the left care much what Obama's preacher says. The expediency was about keeping the story out of the press. Perhaps he was even doing his church a favor, I don't know.
Anyway, the entire episode is both sad and over.
Before I go, haven't we told you about visiting those sites? I think another intervention might be in order.
Anyway, the entire episode is both sad and over.
Before I go, haven't we told you about visiting those sites? I think another intervention might be in order.
Lee, "thanks" is about how it sounds when I say "thinks." No harm, no foul! :-)
Geoffrey: I had to have a fix, man.
Geoffrey: I had to have a fix, man.
I, too, was disappointed with Obama on this quitting his church.
I did wonder, though, if it could be he was doing it as a favor to the church - to try to remove the media spotlight from them so they could continue to be the church they need to be and continue with their ministries on a more normal basis.
While I prefer my presidents - if they claim to be Christian - to actually be a part of a church, at the same time, man! that seems like it's difficult. What with the constant media, the secret service and so on.
My more hopeful self is hoping that perhaps Obama did this as a favor to them. My more cynical self thinks it was an unwise and cowardly political move.
I did wonder, though, if it could be he was doing it as a favor to the church - to try to remove the media spotlight from them so they could continue to be the church they need to be and continue with their ministries on a more normal basis.
While I prefer my presidents - if they claim to be Christian - to actually be a part of a church, at the same time, man! that seems like it's difficult. What with the constant media, the secret service and so on.
My more hopeful self is hoping that perhaps Obama did this as a favor to them. My more cynical self thinks it was an unwise and cowardly political move.
Meh. Let's not, like the fundies, confuse a church with the Church, nor a church with its preacher.
Is it about political expediency? Sure. Do I care? Nope. I do wish that Obama had just told people to shut up, that his faith and religious practices are no one's business but his own. But I think that's a case that's easier to make when one is actually in office, not when one is running for office. I'm not sure in our age of Oprah, it's possible to tell people to mind their own business any more. Particularly not the fusspots in the Republican party who have made it their job to stick their noses in everyone elses' business for the last 8 years.
The folks who have such a problem with Obama don't really care about this. It's all smoke and mirrors. Where's their outrage about McCain? Where's their outrage about the fact that GWB rarely ever attends church (he reportedly attends much less often than Bill Clinton did while in office.) They don't care about any of that (neither do I), and they don't actually care about Obama & Trinity UCC & Rev Wright (neither do I.)
What's ironic is that they're being just as politically expedient as they accuse Obama of being. They find an easy excuse to attack and exploit because they hate him, not because they care about the issue, but because it's politically expedient to appear to care.
Either that, or they really are so stupid and shallow as to believe that it actually matters whether or not one wears a flag pin, or what some other, completely different person who is not running for office has to say.
Is it about political expediency? Sure. Do I care? Nope. I do wish that Obama had just told people to shut up, that his faith and religious practices are no one's business but his own. But I think that's a case that's easier to make when one is actually in office, not when one is running for office. I'm not sure in our age of Oprah, it's possible to tell people to mind their own business any more. Particularly not the fusspots in the Republican party who have made it their job to stick their noses in everyone elses' business for the last 8 years.
The folks who have such a problem with Obama don't really care about this. It's all smoke and mirrors. Where's their outrage about McCain? Where's their outrage about the fact that GWB rarely ever attends church (he reportedly attends much less often than Bill Clinton did while in office.) They don't care about any of that (neither do I), and they don't actually care about Obama & Trinity UCC & Rev Wright (neither do I.)
What's ironic is that they're being just as politically expedient as they accuse Obama of being. They find an easy excuse to attack and exploit because they hate him, not because they care about the issue, but because it's politically expedient to appear to care.
Either that, or they really are so stupid and shallow as to believe that it actually matters whether or not one wears a flag pin, or what some other, completely different person who is not running for office has to say.
This whole conversation is the best argument for seperation ofo church and state Ive seen in a while.
A man's personal relationship with his faith organization has been affected, and entire congregation has been smeared, and you've go ttwo sides of the same faith sniping at each other over what should be trivia.
As an outside, it's a mess...and frankly, it has nothing to do with the issues we need to be looking at.
Obama's personal faith is personal, though it inspires his actions, we can see enough of the actions to decide if they line up with our personal beliefs of not...regardless of how far away Obama's personal beliefs are from ours...
The congragation in question has just as much political influence as it ever did before, but now theres a snapshot out there thats about as representative of it as if someone jumped out of a closet and snapped a cadid picture of you in one of your akward moments.
sheesh.
If a religious group's primary function is to influence politics, then their "religion" should be fair game...if it is meant to be personal and is exercised on a personal level...then let it stay personal.
A man's personal relationship with his faith organization has been affected, and entire congregation has been smeared, and you've go ttwo sides of the same faith sniping at each other over what should be trivia.
As an outside, it's a mess...and frankly, it has nothing to do with the issues we need to be looking at.
Obama's personal faith is personal, though it inspires his actions, we can see enough of the actions to decide if they line up with our personal beliefs of not...regardless of how far away Obama's personal beliefs are from ours...
The congragation in question has just as much political influence as it ever did before, but now theres a snapshot out there thats about as representative of it as if someone jumped out of a closet and snapped a cadid picture of you in one of your akward moments.
sheesh.
If a religious group's primary function is to influence politics, then their "religion" should be fair game...if it is meant to be personal and is exercised on a personal level...then let it stay personal.
# posted by 
: 10:24 AM
: 10:24 AM
Hey! wanna have some fun?
Lets go out and try to find someone who will say they saw Obama smoke pot once...
...and see how long it takes the righties to smear him as a "secret rastifarian".
Lets go out and try to find someone who will say they saw Obama smoke pot once...
...and see how long it takes the righties to smear him as a "secret rastifarian".
# posted by : 10:27 AM
: 10:27 AM
Unless I'm mistaken, Obama's already defused that one. Said he's smoked AND inhaled.
“I did. It’s not something I’m proud of. It was a mistake as a young man. But I never understood that line,” Mr. Obama said, pausing to recall Mr. Clinton’s insistence that he didn’t inhale. “The point was to inhale. That was the point.”
“I did. It’s not something I’m proud of. It was a mistake as a young man. But I never understood that line,” Mr. Obama said, pausing to recall Mr. Clinton’s insistence that he didn’t inhale. “The point was to inhale. That was the point.”
Doesn't Obama smoke Marlboro reds? That'll probably cost him more votes from certain segments of the Dem party than smokin' dope would.
"The point was to inhale"
Well, I can see why a person might take a puff and not inhale just to be sociable...but they don't really want to partake...
...kind of like the guy at the office party who doesn't really like beer, but buys one anyway and just carries it around for hours, and sets it on the bar when he leaves.
You don't want to come off as "holier-than-thou" and make your abstinance the focus of the event.
'course, other reasons to not inhale include:
1)being a social coward who wants to go along with the crowd, but is afraid to actually do anything wrong.
2) being a narc or a snitch.
Only the person who is not inhaling has a hope in hell of knowing the difference. and he might even be fooling himself. :-)
One thing I can say about Obama, is that trusting to the maturity of the voters doesn't seem to have hurt him any...
Well, I can see why a person might take a puff and not inhale just to be sociable...but they don't really want to partake...
...kind of like the guy at the office party who doesn't really like beer, but buys one anyway and just carries it around for hours, and sets it on the bar when he leaves.
You don't want to come off as "holier-than-thou" and make your abstinance the focus of the event.
'course, other reasons to not inhale include:
1)being a social coward who wants to go along with the crowd, but is afraid to actually do anything wrong.
2) being a narc or a snitch.
Only the person who is not inhaling has a hope in hell of knowing the difference. and he might even be fooling himself. :-)
One thing I can say about Obama, is that trusting to the maturity of the voters doesn't seem to have hurt him any...
# posted by : 1:48 PM
: 1:48 PM
RE: "Doesn't Obama smoke Marlboro reds?"
Another reason to vote for the fine senator: He IS the Marlboro Man.
:-)
Another reason to vote for the fine senator: He IS the Marlboro Man.
:-)
"(The Rev. Wright did show his ass at the National Press Club, but he had retired from the pulpit by then....)"
Interesting how things turn around, eh?
The Unretirement of Reverend Wright
And to Geoffrey who said: "As if ELAshley or anyone else on the right would vote for Obama no matter what he did..." So long as you're not inferring I'd not vote for him because of his race, you've said it right. I won't vote for him because of his politics... nothing more, nothing less. As to Barack's faith, or lack thereof, it's of little interest to me. His "faith" isn't going to tax this country into oblivion.
Interesting how things turn around, eh?
The Unretirement of Reverend Wright
And to Geoffrey who said: "As if ELAshley or anyone else on the right would vote for Obama no matter what he did..." So long as you're not inferring I'd not vote for him because of his race, you've said it right. I won't vote for him because of his politics... nothing more, nothing less. As to Barack's faith, or lack thereof, it's of little interest to me. His "faith" isn't going to tax this country into oblivion.
Alan,
I heard that too. You know, he wears a lot of red, yellow and green...
...just not at the same time.
sneaky sneaky sneaky secret Rastifarian.
I heard that too. You know, he wears a lot of red, yellow and green...
...just not at the same time.
sneaky sneaky sneaky secret Rastifarian.
# posted by : 5:33 PM
: 5:33 PM
To ELAshley - dude, we are talking about the man's religious beliefs. I'm not even sure where that came from because I was looking in left field and still got conked on the head. I named you as an example of a right-winger who would not vote for Obama because of his policies; leaving his church because of some bad publicity and (in my opinion) ignorant press coverage didn't help him with any religious groups of which I am aware.
Not to mention, from EL:
"As to Barack's faith, or lack thereof, it's of little interest to me.
Pardon me, but my BS detector is going off, big time. EL, you have denigrated the man's faith more than a few times -- including the post linked!
You wouldn;t vote for him becauee of his policies. Fine and good, But you reject him, and his church, as either a fake or because you don't approve of either his faith or his church -- or, "church," as you put it!
"As to Barack's faith, or lack thereof, it's of little interest to me.
Pardon me, but my BS detector is going off, big time. EL, you have denigrated the man's faith more than a few times -- including the post linked!
You wouldn;t vote for him becauee of his policies. Fine and good, But you reject him, and his church, as either a fake or because you don't approve of either his faith or his church -- or, "church," as you put it!
Au contraire, meine freund, I've bashed everyone who held him up as a pargon of Godly virtue; heaping praise upon his wonderful church. And if you had read more closely (as I should have here) you'd have seen that in the post you cite at my place I'm not bashing his religion or his faith, but rather his decidedly poor (in my opinion) judgment and lack of integrity, which you also highlighted in the body of this very post.
You, Dan, and just about every other Lib has bent over backward to praise Obama's religion, his pastor, his church... his faith. If you guys are willing to hold him up upon your shoulders and cart him around the circus as a hero of the empire you shouldn't be surprised that some choose not to applaud, who instead feel it necessary (and their civic duty) to release the lions to test his mettle.
My only concern about Obama is his experience (which is nil) and his integrity (which is only fractionally better). He's certainly qualified to be president as far as what the Constitution has to say on the matter, but that won't make him an able president. Carter was qualified, but he was also disaster.
You, Dan, and just about every other Lib has bent over backward to praise Obama's religion, his pastor, his church... his faith. If you guys are willing to hold him up upon your shoulders and cart him around the circus as a hero of the empire you shouldn't be surprised that some choose not to applaud, who instead feel it necessary (and their civic duty) to release the lions to test his mettle.
My only concern about Obama is his experience (which is nil) and his integrity (which is only fractionally better). He's certainly qualified to be president as far as what the Constitution has to say on the matter, but that won't make him an able president. Carter was qualified, but he was also disaster.
No offense, EL, but yer are fullof it.
Re, "It has been about Barack's claim to Christianity while sitting in a "church" ..."
Sir, that is bashing him AND his church.
Re, "A faithless pretender to grace, or a weak babe lacking discernment. ..."
Sir, that is bashing his faith, and the man hiself! You judge.
Re, "It has been about Barack's claim to Christianity while sitting in a "church" ..."
Sir, that is bashing him AND his church.
Re, "A faithless pretender to grace, or a weak babe lacking discernment. ..."
Sir, that is bashing his faith, and the man hiself! You judge.
Hey, EL. Why don't you take a week and read the comments under "Non-atheists gone wild!!!" below and weigh in??
Kidding. I wouldn't wish starting that thread from scratch -- as cool as it is -- on anybody. :-)
Kidding. I wouldn't wish starting that thread from scratch -- as cool as it is -- on anybody. :-)
I feel like I am channeling Alan here when I say, "Strawman Alert!"
ELAshley writes:
"You, Dan, and just about every other Lib has bent over backward to praise Obama's religion, his pastor, his church... his faith. If you guys are willing to hold him up upon your shoulders and cart him around the circus as a hero of the empire you shouldn't be surprised that some choose not to applaud, who instead feel it necessary (and their civic duty) to release the lions to test his mettle." I am assuming, for clarity's sake, that the first "You" refers to the wondrous host of this blog.
Anyway, that is a straw argument for this reason. I have yet to read, except among the most rabid and narrow of Obama-partisans (none of whom have written anything here of which I am aware), believe he is anything other than a gifted politician, the right person at the right time seeking the right office. Your argument - that we idolize him and it is, therefore, incumbent upon you (and those who think as you) to destroy that idol in the name of . . . what, exactly?
Dude, sorry, but that's a straw argument, for the simple reason that (a) this post is critical of Obama specifically on the issue of his relationship vis-a-vis the church he called home for 20 years; and (b) you don't address that issue, but hurl insults concerning Obama's integrity (of which you know little) and his faith (of which you know less). You say you don't care about Obama's faith, but since that's kind of the point of this post, and you dismiss out of hand any claim Obama makes concerning his own religious faith - I think you are protesting a bit too much.
ELAshley writes:
"You, Dan, and just about every other Lib has bent over backward to praise Obama's religion, his pastor, his church... his faith. If you guys are willing to hold him up upon your shoulders and cart him around the circus as a hero of the empire you shouldn't be surprised that some choose not to applaud, who instead feel it necessary (and their civic duty) to release the lions to test his mettle." I am assuming, for clarity's sake, that the first "You" refers to the wondrous host of this blog.
Anyway, that is a straw argument for this reason. I have yet to read, except among the most rabid and narrow of Obama-partisans (none of whom have written anything here of which I am aware), believe he is anything other than a gifted politician, the right person at the right time seeking the right office. Your argument - that we idolize him and it is, therefore, incumbent upon you (and those who think as you) to destroy that idol in the name of . . . what, exactly?
Dude, sorry, but that's a straw argument, for the simple reason that (a) this post is critical of Obama specifically on the issue of his relationship vis-a-vis the church he called home for 20 years; and (b) you don't address that issue, but hurl insults concerning Obama's integrity (of which you know little) and his faith (of which you know less). You say you don't care about Obama's faith, but since that's kind of the point of this post, and you dismiss out of hand any claim Obama makes concerning his own religious faith - I think you are protesting a bit too much.
It ain't Obama that's bothering you ER. It is your hope in Obama that's pissing you off. It is a common problem for romantic realist.
This is too funny!
"Those righties won't vote for Obama no matter what he does!... So he turned his back on his church... Bah, I'm gonna vote for him anyway. Just so long as he will meet with madmen and evil dictators instead of calling them what they are and putting them in their place..."
"So what if he's inexperienced... So what if he has surrounded himself with crooks, extremists and wild-eyed wierdos all his life... Bah, I'm going to vote for him anyway. I mean, who knows... He might surround himself with diplomats and statesmen once he's in office... You never know!"
"But those righties, there's no reaching them!"
TOO FUNNY!!
"Those righties won't vote for Obama no matter what he does!... So he turned his back on his church... Bah, I'm gonna vote for him anyway. Just so long as he will meet with madmen and evil dictators instead of calling them what they are and putting them in their place..."
"So what if he's inexperienced... So what if he has surrounded himself with crooks, extremists and wild-eyed wierdos all his life... Bah, I'm going to vote for him anyway. I mean, who knows... He might surround himself with diplomats and statesmen once he's in office... You never know!"
"But those righties, there's no reaching them!"
TOO FUNNY!!
I cannot wait until the four years of the Obama Presidency are over.
He will prove to be the most inept, most inadequate President in this nation's history, and the ideological pendulum WILL swing back to the Right when it's over.
I just hope that the damage he and his type do in the meantime can somehow be quickly undone when smarter, more rational people are returned to power...
He will prove to be the most inept, most inadequate President in this nation's history, and the ideological pendulum WILL swing back to the Right when it's over.
I just hope that the damage he and his type do in the meantime can somehow be quickly undone when smarter, more rational people are returned to power...
He will prove to be the most inept, most inadequate President in this nation's history...
I don't know, Tug. W has set that bar PRETTY danged high.
...and the ideological pendulum WILL swing back to the Right when it's over.
Once again, I wouldn't count on it. Bush has not only shot the Republican party in the foot, but he did so at close range and with a nuclear bomb.
I'm suspecting that Republicans will have a hard time getting elected dog catcher for the foreseeable future.
People are tired of the type of partisan and arrogant politics the Bush-types represent and we want to feel good about the US again, and that will only happen when we return to our values and the Republicans have SO twisted the meaning of that word (torture = good; pre-emptive invasion = justified; good = bad; up = down, etc, etc) that it'll be hard to take them seriously about anything any time soon.
I don't know, Tug. W has set that bar PRETTY danged high.
...and the ideological pendulum WILL swing back to the Right when it's over.
Once again, I wouldn't count on it. Bush has not only shot the Republican party in the foot, but he did so at close range and with a nuclear bomb.
I'm suspecting that Republicans will have a hard time getting elected dog catcher for the foreseeable future.
People are tired of the type of partisan and arrogant politics the Bush-types represent and we want to feel good about the US again, and that will only happen when we return to our values and the Republicans have SO twisted the meaning of that word (torture = good; pre-emptive invasion = justified; good = bad; up = down, etc, etc) that it'll be hard to take them seriously about anything any time soon.
Dan beat me to the punch on this one. it is George W. Bush who has proven himself to be the most inept President in American history, with consistent approval ratings below forty percent for two years. It is George Bush who has surrounded himself with criminals, shallow sycophants, and ideological lightweights who have destroyed this country. The pendulum won't swing to the right anytime soon because the blush is off the right-wing rose for a very long time.
It is truly sad when someone engages in obvious projection.
It is truly sad when someone engages in obvious projection.
I expect Obama will bring out the worst in this nation. He will bring them out of their $3000 suits, and out of the woods and deserts, and out of their Oklahoma and Idaho hideouts. They will be unable to make the transition from one of their own kind to a liberal forward looking black politician.
Indeed the rocks will shift as they are move from beneath by the radical haters that reside there.
No doubt Tim McVeigh and others will become icons of the beliefs and their congregations will be militias dormant but not quite dead, which will surge to full blown temples of hate with their ranks.
That is the back side of progress, the resurgent regress of the warped and broken souls of hate.
Oklahoma knows these people. They've been here and left their cowardly bombs to do their work.
We have walked through the blood of their innocent victims.
Civil wars don't start in the centers of commerce, or of government even. They start in the hinter lands; Kansas, Missouri, maybe even Oklahoma. As the infection of hate raises its boil here, we will lance it. Naw, shit, let's cut the whole arm off and be done with it.
It is better to have just one arm and be free of such infection, than be whole and die of the poison it spreads through the body.
There are those who think this is just another election. There are those who think they will rise again. There are those who think this is the beginning of a new age.
Hope springs eternal in all breast, even those that harbor a dark heart.
For the Children who have not tasted revolution, this is all new.
It isn't new, we just had an interlude. 1968 scared America so we scurried to the safety that the Nixonian Era seems to promise: Peace in our time. The interlude started with Nixon the father of the divided nation and is ending with Bush the logical consequences of that division.
But now the "Greatest Generation" is dead. They can not drag us back to the dreads of the 1950's and extend them any more like they did before. So now what children?
You've been raised in 40 years of conservative crap. Now you know what they really are. What are you going to do about it. Winning back the government will not be enough. Obama is not a messiah he can't save you. You will have to do that yourselves. Stop whining and stop consorting with the enemy, for they are the enemy and you must cut that arm off for your own good.
You see there are no parents here to help you. Your grandparents of the Greatest Generation are dead. Your parents of the Vietnam Era are dead or are in need of spiritual Viagra. They will be no help. They are the ones who accepted their Parents punishment of the Nixon Era in the first place.
What will you do? Give it back to the 23%? That small group that formed the Southern Elite, the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, the Wahhabi
radicals, the Nixonians, will you return your future to them? Again?
If you go to the barricades, I'll get my flintlock and join you.
Indeed the rocks will shift as they are move from beneath by the radical haters that reside there.
No doubt Tim McVeigh and others will become icons of the beliefs and their congregations will be militias dormant but not quite dead, which will surge to full blown temples of hate with their ranks.
That is the back side of progress, the resurgent regress of the warped and broken souls of hate.
Oklahoma knows these people. They've been here and left their cowardly bombs to do their work.
We have walked through the blood of their innocent victims.
Civil wars don't start in the centers of commerce, or of government even. They start in the hinter lands; Kansas, Missouri, maybe even Oklahoma. As the infection of hate raises its boil here, we will lance it. Naw, shit, let's cut the whole arm off and be done with it.
It is better to have just one arm and be free of such infection, than be whole and die of the poison it spreads through the body.
There are those who think this is just another election. There are those who think they will rise again. There are those who think this is the beginning of a new age.
Hope springs eternal in all breast, even those that harbor a dark heart.
For the Children who have not tasted revolution, this is all new.
It isn't new, we just had an interlude. 1968 scared America so we scurried to the safety that the Nixonian Era seems to promise: Peace in our time. The interlude started with Nixon the father of the divided nation and is ending with Bush the logical consequences of that division.
But now the "Greatest Generation" is dead. They can not drag us back to the dreads of the 1950's and extend them any more like they did before. So now what children?
You've been raised in 40 years of conservative crap. Now you know what they really are. What are you going to do about it. Winning back the government will not be enough. Obama is not a messiah he can't save you. You will have to do that yourselves. Stop whining and stop consorting with the enemy, for they are the enemy and you must cut that arm off for your own good.
You see there are no parents here to help you. Your grandparents of the Greatest Generation are dead. Your parents of the Vietnam Era are dead or are in need of spiritual Viagra. They will be no help. They are the ones who accepted their Parents punishment of the Nixon Era in the first place.
What will you do? Give it back to the 23%? That small group that formed the Southern Elite, the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, the Wahhabi
radicals, the Nixonians, will you return your future to them? Again?
If you go to the barricades, I'll get my flintlock and join you.
Obvious projection, huh?
Okay.
Live in your own little worlds if you need to. I knew that no one here was going to agree with me anyway.
But if you guys think that everyone in America shares the level of hatred for George W. Bush that you guys have, then you are sadly mistaken.
And if you really believe that the types of people that Obama has surrounded himself with are the people who are going to save us, then you guys are nuts.
But it's okay.
Democrats are not going to put a black man in the White House anyway.
And there is a long time, and a lot of speeches to go before the we go out and vote for President of these here fifty-seven states.
Plenty of time for O'bama to see dead people in the audience, to tell about his uncle freeing the Jews from the Egyptians, tell us about his heroism in Viet-Nam, or whatever else he goofs up on, or makes up.
Plenty of time for more skeletons to come rattlin' out of his closet.
Okay.
Live in your own little worlds if you need to. I knew that no one here was going to agree with me anyway.
But if you guys think that everyone in America shares the level of hatred for George W. Bush that you guys have, then you are sadly mistaken.
And if you really believe that the types of people that Obama has surrounded himself with are the people who are going to save us, then you guys are nuts.
But it's okay.
Democrats are not going to put a black man in the White House anyway.
And there is a long time, and a lot of speeches to go before the we go out and vote for President of these here fifty-seven states.
Plenty of time for O'bama to see dead people in the audience, to tell about his uncle freeing the Jews from the Egyptians, tell us about his heroism in Viet-Nam, or whatever else he goofs up on, or makes up.
Plenty of time for more skeletons to come rattlin' out of his closet.
Re, "That is the back side of progress, the resurgent regress of the warped and broken souls of hate."
DrLobo speaks wisdom. ... That who comment was impressive.
DrLobo speaks wisdom. ... That who comment was impressive.
"Stop whining and stop consorting with the enemy, for they are the enemy and you must cut that arm off for your own good."
This is wisdom? It sounds like hate-filled rationale for violence against those that disagree with you politically, to me. Please enlighten me as to the hyperbole? I hope I am mistaken.
This is wisdom? It sounds like hate-filled rationale for violence against those that disagree with you politically, to me. Please enlighten me as to the hyperbole? I hope I am mistaken.
Re, "This is wisdom? It sounds like hate-filled rationale for violence against those that disagree with you politically, to me."
DrLobo can speak for himself. But it's not hate-filled. It's bad-experienced-filled. And I don't think he's referring to garden-variety political opponents. I think he's referring to official thinking that he deems actually dangerous to the long-term health of the republic.
But, as i said, DrLobo can elucidate as he sees fit.
DrLobo can speak for himself. But it's not hate-filled. It's bad-experienced-filled. And I don't think he's referring to garden-variety political opponents. I think he's referring to official thinking that he deems actually dangerous to the long-term health of the republic.
But, as i said, DrLobo can elucidate as he sees fit.
He could be referring to, to the system itself that elects a Dubya, and creates an all but worshipful aura around Obama, coughs up a McCain, and mistakes Hillary Clinton, a great policy wonk and politician, for some kind of feminist messiah.
But, really, LOL, I'm not sure.
Off to start the grill! Pork tenderloins!
Oh, BTW, Doc, I want you to know that I apprecate you coming around here. I value your thinking and your input, and I especially appreciate your voice since I'm sure we personally disagree on many things. As the AA's say to newcomers: Keep coming back! :-)
But, really, LOL, I'm not sure.
Off to start the grill! Pork tenderloins!
Oh, BTW, Doc, I want you to know that I apprecate you coming around here. I value your thinking and your input, and I especially appreciate your voice since I'm sure we personally disagree on many things. As the AA's say to newcomers: Keep coming back! :-)
I found this comment from Obama through the Christianity Today blog, a comment spoken to a Time magazine reporter which I haven't seen anywhere else. When asked about his faith, Obama said:
"Well, look, obviously as a Christian I believe in the values that are laid out in Scripture. I reflect on them often. I reflect on the lessons of Scripture as I’m going through the day. I pray frequently. I wrestle with doubts and try to figure out whether I’m doing the right thing, am I operating in an honest and moral way that is true to my religious precepts? Sometimes I may falter. So I guess the point is, I approach my work or I guess my faith is part of everything that I do. And I don’t think there’s a clear separation between my faith and how I try to live my life. And I certainly think that part of my motivation in the work that I do is a belief in what I consider the core precept of Christianity in addition to Christ dying for your sins and that is treating your brothers and sisters as you would have them treat you. A sense of empathy and a belief in the golden rule. And that’s what I try to apply to my work and what I do every day."
Horse's mouth.
"Well, look, obviously as a Christian I believe in the values that are laid out in Scripture. I reflect on them often. I reflect on the lessons of Scripture as I’m going through the day. I pray frequently. I wrestle with doubts and try to figure out whether I’m doing the right thing, am I operating in an honest and moral way that is true to my religious precepts? Sometimes I may falter. So I guess the point is, I approach my work or I guess my faith is part of everything that I do. And I don’t think there’s a clear separation between my faith and how I try to live my life. And I certainly think that part of my motivation in the work that I do is a belief in what I consider the core precept of Christianity in addition to Christ dying for your sins and that is treating your brothers and sisters as you would have them treat you. A sense of empathy and a belief in the golden rule. And that’s what I try to apply to my work and what I do every day."
Horse's mouth.
Doc,
would I have been hate filled to have identified and decried the Brown shirts at the inception of the of the German Fascist regime.
When I talk about walking in the blood of the victims of Tim McVeigh
I'm not speaking metaphorically. I was wearing Hush Puppies and I threw them away soaked in blood and full of broken glass on April 19, 1995.
Once you decide to take America by force or fraud, you cease to be an American.
Then you are a traitor. If you think they are not out there, or rather, around you, then you need to take a hard look. Boy, do I hope you are right. But I don't believe it.
Just get ready for a bunch of big nasty.
As for the "Christian" argument, no doubt Christ loved the money changers in the Temple. That didn't keep him from braiding a whip and beating the crap out of them for what they were doing.
In the last 40 years we have had 28 years of Nixonian crap and 8 years of pseudo Nixonian crap.
Even the four years of Carter was poisoned by proto-neocons. Most Americans haven't even experience what America can be with the right leadership and vision.
If you think they will release the power without a fight think again.
The laws are in place. The bureaucracy exist already. The fifth estate is their sock puppet. The core of their shock troops are already in the Militias that have gone unmolested for a decade. What's to stop them?
They will make us so scared of that straw man thing that we will gift wrap our liberty and hand it over. They will just replay the 1968 strategy, unless....
would I have been hate filled to have identified and decried the Brown shirts at the inception of the of the German Fascist regime.
When I talk about walking in the blood of the victims of Tim McVeigh
I'm not speaking metaphorically. I was wearing Hush Puppies and I threw them away soaked in blood and full of broken glass on April 19, 1995.
Once you decide to take America by force or fraud, you cease to be an American.
Then you are a traitor. If you think they are not out there, or rather, around you, then you need to take a hard look. Boy, do I hope you are right. But I don't believe it.
Just get ready for a bunch of big nasty.
As for the "Christian" argument, no doubt Christ loved the money changers in the Temple. That didn't keep him from braiding a whip and beating the crap out of them for what they were doing.
In the last 40 years we have had 28 years of Nixonian crap and 8 years of pseudo Nixonian crap.
Even the four years of Carter was poisoned by proto-neocons. Most Americans haven't even experience what America can be with the right leadership and vision.
If you think they will release the power without a fight think again.
The laws are in place. The bureaucracy exist already. The fifth estate is their sock puppet. The core of their shock troops are already in the Militias that have gone unmolested for a decade. What's to stop them?
They will make us so scared of that straw man thing that we will gift wrap our liberty and hand it over. They will just replay the 1968 strategy, unless....
(h)apa quoted Obama on Christianity. I read transcripts from the interview the article in Time online (I believe). Obama speaks very well to his decision. I don't think any candidate should be scrutinized regarding faith, except to ask directly, how they feel it helps to shape their policies. Period. Unless, of course, he's tokin' for Jah, mon.
Here's the messy link:
http://thepage.time.com/obama-addresses-church-decision/
(note they typo'd the Holy See as the Holy C. I like that better)
ER said: "He could be referring to, to the system itself that elects a Dubya, and creates an all but worshipful aura around Obama, coughs up a McCain, and mistakes Hillary Clinton, a great policy wonk and politician, for some kind of feminist messiah."
and "I especially appreciate your voice since I'm sure we personally disagree on many things."
Too kind, thanks. The first of your paragraphs is an area where we quite agree. Apparently right of center and left of center political skeptics aren't too far apart :)
Drlobojo said:
"would I have been hate filled to have identified and decried the Brown shirts at the inception of the of the German Fascist regime."
Yes. And I think the hatred of the ideology is okay. Would it have been okay to take up violence against the Brown shirts for their ideology only? I'll try to explain below.
You mention the your very personal experience regarding the Murrah building. (This was an abominable, horrible, and devastating action, and I have been saddened from hearing the many traumas, including yours. I hope you have found some respite from that memory.)
Also: "Once you decide to take America by force or fraud, you cease to be an American.
Then you are a traitor. If you think they are not out there, or rather, around you, then you need to take a hard look. Boy, do I hope you are right. But I don't believe it."
I hope so, too. I asked for your clarification, only to this one point:
My opinion is this:
A call to violent internal revolution (if I am interpreting the statement correctly), should be in response to an internal violent threat. The hatred of ideology, whether against the Brown Shirts,or the White Supremacy Groups, etc, should remain nonviolent, except in response to a violent threat. Clearly, the Brown Shirts were violently threatening, and a physical struggle against their actions (not beliefs) would be quite justified. Clearly, McVeigh was violent, and a physical punishment has been levied. If the Aryans, or others in an Aryan agenda, try to physically come after the supporters of, say, President Obama, I will lead that charge against the Aryans or any like group. In the meanwhile, I'll continue to encourage the battle in the arena of ideas.
I hope you are just sounding a warning of nastiness that is likely to come (in your opinion), rather than a call for violence today.
Here's the messy link:
http://thepage.time.com/obama-addresses-church-decision/
(note they typo'd the Holy See as the Holy C. I like that better)
ER said: "He could be referring to, to the system itself that elects a Dubya, and creates an all but worshipful aura around Obama, coughs up a McCain, and mistakes Hillary Clinton, a great policy wonk and politician, for some kind of feminist messiah."
and "I especially appreciate your voice since I'm sure we personally disagree on many things."
Too kind, thanks. The first of your paragraphs is an area where we quite agree. Apparently right of center and left of center political skeptics aren't too far apart :)
Drlobojo said:
"would I have been hate filled to have identified and decried the Brown shirts at the inception of the of the German Fascist regime."
Yes. And I think the hatred of the ideology is okay. Would it have been okay to take up violence against the Brown shirts for their ideology only? I'll try to explain below.
You mention the your very personal experience regarding the Murrah building. (This was an abominable, horrible, and devastating action, and I have been saddened from hearing the many traumas, including yours. I hope you have found some respite from that memory.)
Also: "Once you decide to take America by force or fraud, you cease to be an American.
Then you are a traitor. If you think they are not out there, or rather, around you, then you need to take a hard look. Boy, do I hope you are right. But I don't believe it."
I hope so, too. I asked for your clarification, only to this one point:
My opinion is this:
A call to violent internal revolution (if I am interpreting the statement correctly), should be in response to an internal violent threat. The hatred of ideology, whether against the Brown Shirts,or the White Supremacy Groups, etc, should remain nonviolent, except in response to a violent threat. Clearly, the Brown Shirts were violently threatening, and a physical struggle against their actions (not beliefs) would be quite justified. Clearly, McVeigh was violent, and a physical punishment has been levied. If the Aryans, or others in an Aryan agenda, try to physically come after the supporters of, say, President Obama, I will lead that charge against the Aryans or any like group. In the meanwhile, I'll continue to encourage the battle in the arena of ideas.
I hope you are just sounding a warning of nastiness that is likely to come (in your opinion), rather than a call for violence today.
I'm not recommending initiating violence. Keep it from happening yes, be ready to respond, yes. Obama is promising to irritate the hell out of a significant segment of our country. Will they back away generously? Not hardly.
However, don't shy away from a little blood letting now and again. We just need to make certain that it is the right blood that is shed. So far we haven't done so well on that account. What shall we do about that? Nothing?
Doc said:
"You mention the your very personal experience regarding the Murrah building. (This was an abominable, horrible, and devastating action, and I have been saddened from hearing the many traumas, including yours. I hope you have found some respite from that memory.)"
Thanks for the sentiment, but the comment was not for sympathy but for an example of how real this is.
Respite? Not much, you see gifts like McVeigh gave us just keep on giving. The dying from the bombing has yet to stop.
If you think Tim was an anomaly, then think again.
The thing we are missing in the political systems is anger. ANGER, that the fools aren't doing their jobs. Anger, that they spit daily on our constitution. If you aren't angry today you will be by November.
I rant you say, yes, I rant. Now where is that damn flintlock? It used to be in the closet....
However, don't shy away from a little blood letting now and again. We just need to make certain that it is the right blood that is shed. So far we haven't done so well on that account. What shall we do about that? Nothing?
Doc said:
"You mention the your very personal experience regarding the Murrah building. (This was an abominable, horrible, and devastating action, and I have been saddened from hearing the many traumas, including yours. I hope you have found some respite from that memory.)"
Thanks for the sentiment, but the comment was not for sympathy but for an example of how real this is.
Respite? Not much, you see gifts like McVeigh gave us just keep on giving. The dying from the bombing has yet to stop.
If you think Tim was an anomaly, then think again.
The thing we are missing in the political systems is anger. ANGER, that the fools aren't doing their jobs. Anger, that they spit daily on our constitution. If you aren't angry today you will be by November.
I rant you say, yes, I rant. Now where is that damn flintlock? It used to be in the closet....
"Obama is promising to irritate the hell out of a significant segment of our country. Will they back away generously? Not hardly.
From what I can see, the Tim McVeighs of the world will be irritated by anything short of a Ron Paul Presidency...and even that would merely be seen as a small step in the right direction.
From what I can see, the Tim McVeighs of the world will be irritated by anything short of a Ron Paul Presidency...and even that would merely be seen as a small step in the right direction.
# posted by : 6:51 AM
: 6:51 AM
The Tim McVeighs of the world don't want ANY presidency, as we understand the term today, untitary executive or otherwise. Not sure what they want, exactly, but it isn't representative government.
And the militia movement is barely dormant. Labeling it the "militia movement," actually, created a dodge for these people, something they can legitimately deny they're part of, even as they go on seething, waiting for the least hiccup in the social order to come out of the woodwork.
There'a a bunch that have been holed up in the woods in my home county in eastern Oklahoma for years and years. Long as they stay in their hole, they're just a fringe bunch in the marketplace of ideas.
But they're armed. And waiting, probably, for what? Their own version of apocalypse? Who fricking knows?
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And the militia movement is barely dormant. Labeling it the "militia movement," actually, created a dodge for these people, something they can legitimately deny they're part of, even as they go on seething, waiting for the least hiccup in the social order to come out of the woodwork.
There'a a bunch that have been holed up in the woods in my home county in eastern Oklahoma for years and years. Long as they stay in their hole, they're just a fringe bunch in the marketplace of ideas.
But they're armed. And waiting, probably, for what? Their own version of apocalypse? Who fricking knows?
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