Thursday, March 13, 2008
My heart would wither in my breast!
"ER, do you pray?"
"I can't help it."
"Does it work?"
"As long as one prayer leads to the next, as one breath leads to the next."
Truth.
This is the most honest description of Christian prayer -- or any other, I dare say -- that I've ever read:
"Godric's View of Prayer"
What's prayer? It's shooting shafts into the dark. What mark to strike, if any, who's to say? It's reaching for a hand you cannot touch. The silence is so fathomless that prayers like plummets vanish into the sea. You beg. You whimper. You load God down with empty praise. You tell him sins that he already knows full well. You seek to change his changeless will. Yet Godric prays the way he breathes, for else his heart would wither in his breast. Prayer is the wind that fills his sail. Else waves would dash him on the rocks, or he would drift with witless tides. And sometimes, by God's grace, a prayer is heard.
--from Frederick Buechner, "Listening to Your Life," George Connor, comp., ed. (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1992): 66.
Talk about prayer! I dare you to be honest. :-)
(GKS! I can't help but think of you! We were kin through the love of Christ before we knew one another. You became my brother through your prayers for me and mine -- strangers, all! -- borne by the love of Christ, when my mama was dying just a year ago! ... I weep.)
--ER
"I can't help it."
"Does it work?"
"As long as one prayer leads to the next, as one breath leads to the next."
Truth.
This is the most honest description of Christian prayer -- or any other, I dare say -- that I've ever read:
"Godric's View of Prayer"
What's prayer? It's shooting shafts into the dark. What mark to strike, if any, who's to say? It's reaching for a hand you cannot touch. The silence is so fathomless that prayers like plummets vanish into the sea. You beg. You whimper. You load God down with empty praise. You tell him sins that he already knows full well. You seek to change his changeless will. Yet Godric prays the way he breathes, for else his heart would wither in his breast. Prayer is the wind that fills his sail. Else waves would dash him on the rocks, or he would drift with witless tides. And sometimes, by God's grace, a prayer is heard.
--from Frederick Buechner, "Listening to Your Life," George Connor, comp., ed. (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1992): 66.
Talk about prayer! I dare you to be honest. :-)
(GKS! I can't help but think of you! We were kin through the love of Christ before we knew one another. You became my brother through your prayers for me and mine -- strangers, all! -- borne by the love of Christ, when my mama was dying just a year ago! ... I weep.)
--ER
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My condolences about your mother, ER. You have my deepest sympathy, and no theological disagreements with you -- substantial as they are, serious as I think the issues are -- can get in the way of that.
About prayer, that paragraph probably expresses the common experience, but it's clearly not what God intended. We are supposed to approach God boldly, knowing that He has done all that is necessary to reconcile us to Himself. We are to pray, knowing that He knows and cares about all our needs and is more than capable of meeting those needs. We are to pray, knowing that every prayer is heard and answered, if not on our timetable and if not the way that we expect. Even the seeming silence isn't the "silent treatment."
And we're to pray with the realization that the triune God participates in every aspect of our prayer: the Father eagerly wants us to approach Him, the Son intercedes on our behalf, and -- as Romans 8:26 explains -- the Spirit helps with our prayers with sighs too deep for words.
This poem sums it up in very vivid language.
About prayer, that paragraph probably expresses the common experience, but it's clearly not what God intended. We are supposed to approach God boldly, knowing that He has done all that is necessary to reconcile us to Himself. We are to pray, knowing that He knows and cares about all our needs and is more than capable of meeting those needs. We are to pray, knowing that every prayer is heard and answered, if not on our timetable and if not the way that we expect. Even the seeming silence isn't the "silent treatment."
And we're to pray with the realization that the triune God participates in every aspect of our prayer: the Father eagerly wants us to approach Him, the Son intercedes on our behalf, and -- as Romans 8:26 explains -- the Spirit helps with our prayers with sighs too deep for words.
This poem sums it up in very vivid language.
# posted by 
: 9:28 AM
: 9:28 AM
Bubba said: We are to pray, knowing that every prayer is heard and answered, if not on our timetable and if not the way that we expect. Even the seeming silence isn't the "silent treatment."
Yep, yep, yep. God answers every prayer. It's just that sometimes the answer is "no," "wait," or even "you didn't ask the right question." Sometimes we just haven't given it enough thought on our own. We need to be in tune enough to discern the difference.
Yep, yep, yep. God answers every prayer. It's just that sometimes the answer is "no," "wait," or even "you didn't ask the right question." Sometimes we just haven't given it enough thought on our own. We need to be in tune enough to discern the difference.
# posted by : 10:06 AM
: 10:06 AM
Re, "it's clearly not what God intended"
Yer right, Bubba. Nothing -- nothing! not one thing in Creation -- is what God intended. Not one thing. Yet we perservere.
The link didn't work. Copy and past the poem if ya can.
Yer right, Bubba. Nothing -- nothing! not one thing in Creation -- is what God intended. Not one thing. Yet we perservere.
The link didn't work. Copy and past the poem if ya can.
I think that at different times we approach God in different ways. Sometimes all you end up being able to pray is "just keep me sane, and hold me tight!".
And I agree with the statement that we can't do otherwise than pray, no matter what.
And I agree with the statement that we can't do otherwise than pray, no matter what.
# posted by : 11:21 AM
: 11:21 AM
While I agree the universe is fallen and that depravity is universal in terms of humanity, I'm personally not convinced that "not one thing" in Creation is what God intended. I'm not sure that would include the speed of light, for instance. More to the point, I believe the original "autograph" texts of the Bible were inerrantly inspired.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to suggest that God is incapable of such inerrant inspiration; wouldn't want put God in that particular box.
Anyway, here's C.S. Lewis' poem I mentioned.
"Prayer"
Master, they say that when I seem
To be in speech with you,
Since you make no replies, it’s all a dream
–One talker aping two.
They are half right, but not as they
Imagine; rather, I
Seek in myself the things I meant to say,
And lo! The wells are dry.
Then, seeing me empty, you forsake
The Listener’s role, and through
My dead lips breathe and into utterance wake
The thoughts I never knew.
And thus you neither need reply
Nor can; thus, while we seem
Two talking, thou are One forever, and I
No dreamer, but thy dream.
Poems, Ed. Walter Hooper (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964), 122-123.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to suggest that God is incapable of such inerrant inspiration; wouldn't want put God in that particular box.
Anyway, here's C.S. Lewis' poem I mentioned.
"Prayer"
Master, they say that when I seem
To be in speech with you,
Since you make no replies, it’s all a dream
–One talker aping two.
They are half right, but not as they
Imagine; rather, I
Seek in myself the things I meant to say,
And lo! The wells are dry.
Then, seeing me empty, you forsake
The Listener’s role, and through
My dead lips breathe and into utterance wake
The thoughts I never knew.
And thus you neither need reply
Nor can; thus, while we seem
Two talking, thou are One forever, and I
No dreamer, but thy dream.
Poems, Ed. Walter Hooper (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964), 122-123.
# posted by : 12:36 PM
: 12:36 PM
'course my perspective is a little different. I think the universe is EXACTLY what God intended...and thus I believe that I have been given everything I need for my purpose, and prayer should not be supplication, but thanksgiving.
Just a little un-Biblical Deist perspective. :-)
Just a little un-Biblical Deist perspective. :-)
# posted by : 12:51 PM
: 12:51 PM
First of all, as to the very kind words you sent my way, ER - thank you, thank you, and thanks. There is no other response, I guess but that, so . . . thank you.
As to prayer. To me, prayer has two parts, the public, communal aspect, and the private aspect. The public aspect, when we gather as a body and pray - that has ritual and liturgy written all over it, is necessary and good, and perhaps even what the Bible means when it speaks of prayer. Yet, I cannot help but feel the private part is far more important, at least for me.
I dated a woman once (why do I keep reaching back to "other women"? ) who told me that she would only feel really comfortable with a man with whom she could pray out loud the private prayers she whispered in her heart. I have always remembered that, because prayer is as intimate and private as sex in many ways, at least to me. It is more than kneeling on the floor, folding one's hands, and saying "Now I lay me down to sleep . . ." It is the on-going dialogue between me and God that is informal, sometimes cantankerous, often rough and tumble, but also rewarding and, as the quote states - necessary for my life.
I feel the presence of the Spirit with me, like I have an open line to the Divine at all times. I might toss up a question, an expletive, a whine a thanksgiving, or have a long conversation. Last night at work, being mostly alone for a change, I spent in silent dialogue with God on all sorts of matters. I do not feel this is either odd or wrong. It's what I do when I have the chance.
I take seriously (although not literally) Paul's injunction to "pray without ceasing". My hope is that, when I am stretched out in a wooden box, someone will note that I lived my life as if it were a prayer, and prayed as if it were me living my life. I have a long way to go in that regard (especially the latter), but in my dialogue with God, no holds are barred, no words are out of bounds, no sentiments too ugly or hateful or hurtful, and I know even in the midst of anger, sorrow, rage or depression, that in the end, I will give thanks and remind myself that the line is open because the One on the other end never hangs up.
I think if I ever felt silence at the other end, I might actually go insane.
I feel like I've been boasting here, and I almost want to take these comments down, but I won't. My private prayer life is so intimate, it's between me and God - I feel like I've opened the door on something best left hidden. Anyway, I apologize if anyone thinks I'm bragging about how I pray all the time. I'm not. Just as I'm a lousy Christian, husband and father, like all those other things, I work at prayer all the time because I want to get it right before I die. That's all. I have a long way to go before I get prayer, and my prayer life, right.
In the meantime, I've had some really good conversations, discovered a lot about me, about God, about the world, and it helps keep me humble (or as humble as possible) and remembering who I am, and (to use a cliche) whose I am.
As to prayer. To me, prayer has two parts, the public, communal aspect, and the private aspect. The public aspect, when we gather as a body and pray - that has ritual and liturgy written all over it, is necessary and good, and perhaps even what the Bible means when it speaks of prayer. Yet, I cannot help but feel the private part is far more important, at least for me.
I dated a woman once (why do I keep reaching back to "other women"? ) who told me that she would only feel really comfortable with a man with whom she could pray out loud the private prayers she whispered in her heart. I have always remembered that, because prayer is as intimate and private as sex in many ways, at least to me. It is more than kneeling on the floor, folding one's hands, and saying "Now I lay me down to sleep . . ." It is the on-going dialogue between me and God that is informal, sometimes cantankerous, often rough and tumble, but also rewarding and, as the quote states - necessary for my life.
I feel the presence of the Spirit with me, like I have an open line to the Divine at all times. I might toss up a question, an expletive, a whine a thanksgiving, or have a long conversation. Last night at work, being mostly alone for a change, I spent in silent dialogue with God on all sorts of matters. I do not feel this is either odd or wrong. It's what I do when I have the chance.
I take seriously (although not literally) Paul's injunction to "pray without ceasing". My hope is that, when I am stretched out in a wooden box, someone will note that I lived my life as if it were a prayer, and prayed as if it were me living my life. I have a long way to go in that regard (especially the latter), but in my dialogue with God, no holds are barred, no words are out of bounds, no sentiments too ugly or hateful or hurtful, and I know even in the midst of anger, sorrow, rage or depression, that in the end, I will give thanks and remind myself that the line is open because the One on the other end never hangs up.
I think if I ever felt silence at the other end, I might actually go insane.
I feel like I've been boasting here, and I almost want to take these comments down, but I won't. My private prayer life is so intimate, it's between me and God - I feel like I've opened the door on something best left hidden. Anyway, I apologize if anyone thinks I'm bragging about how I pray all the time. I'm not. Just as I'm a lousy Christian, husband and father, like all those other things, I work at prayer all the time because I want to get it right before I die. That's all. I have a long way to go before I get prayer, and my prayer life, right.
In the meantime, I've had some really good conversations, discovered a lot about me, about God, about the world, and it helps keep me humble (or as humble as possible) and remembering who I am, and (to use a cliche) whose I am.
Thanks for sharing yer intimacies, dude. I feel uplifted by it, so it has to be more good than bad. :-)
Teresa: What if nothing is as God originally intended, but everything is now as He intends. There's something of a rip in the spiritual-space-time continuum there, I know. ... I'm just thinkin' out loud.
Teresa: What if nothing is as God originally intended, but everything is now as He intends. There's something of a rip in the spiritual-space-time continuum there, I know. ... I'm just thinkin' out loud.
Oh, GKS, I grew up starved for ritual and liturgy, but didn't know it, 'cause I'd never experienced it! Didn't know there was such a thing as the church calendar even. Not till I sojourned with some if y'all Untied Methodists in Texas for a spell. I have warm memories of that time, participating at the margins of a big old-money, huge-mongous self so big I could lose myself. Which is just what I needed! :-) I remember thinking once: WTH is a nave, anyway??? :-)
Wow!
"More to the point, I believe the original 'autograph' texts of the Bible were inerrantly inspired."
Wow! "Autograph" texts! I have never seen that term in the wild.
"More to the point, I believe the original 'autograph' texts of the Bible were inerrantly inspired."
Wow! "Autograph" texts! I have never seen that term in the wild.
So, when you say "inspired" and "inerrant," you mean you believe that God literally guided the hands of the men who wrote the original texts we now consider Scripture, and that they, utterly without fail, recorded the words exactly as God dictated them?
"Autograph" texts? What the hell does that mean? Somewhere, there exists a copy of Genesis with Moses signature on the bottom? That David's handwriting has been analyzed on all the Psalms to verify he was the author of them all (except of course for those not ascribed to him)?
I had no idea the idiocy ran that deep.
I had no idea the idiocy ran that deep.
GKS. It's a little deeper than that.
But Bubba can't have it both ways. Either the men were men, and therefore were fallible, as human when they wrote as when they did anything else, or they were automatons, with their free will suspended, which flies in the face of so much else that it just makes the whole idea collapse on itself.
This description teeters:
"The Church doctrine recognizes the fact that every part of Scripture is at once a product of God's and of man's agency. The human writers have produced each his part in the free and natural exercise of his personal faculties under his historical conditions. God has also so acted concurrently in and through them that the whole organism of Scripture and every part thereof is his word to us, infallibly true in the sense intended and absolutely authoritative."
Here's an entire discussion of the concept. Note the date.
http://homepage.mac.com/
shanerosenthal/
reformationink/aahinsp.htm
But Bubba can't have it both ways. Either the men were men, and therefore were fallible, as human when they wrote as when they did anything else, or they were automatons, with their free will suspended, which flies in the face of so much else that it just makes the whole idea collapse on itself.
This description teeters:
"The Church doctrine recognizes the fact that every part of Scripture is at once a product of God's and of man's agency. The human writers have produced each his part in the free and natural exercise of his personal faculties under his historical conditions. God has also so acted concurrently in and through them that the whole organism of Scripture and every part thereof is his word to us, infallibly true in the sense intended and absolutely authoritative."
Here's an entire discussion of the concept. Note the date.
http://homepage.mac.com/
shanerosenthal/
reformationink/aahinsp.htm
BTW, I honestly meant "deeper" as in "morte involved," but it would be easier for someone to think I meant, "roll yer britches legs up, y'all, 'cause the manure is fixin' to get deep in here."
Although, as a bibliphile and small-time collector, I'd LOVE to have an autographed copy of even one portion of the Bible!
Really, as a half-time historian, and a would-be theologian, the thinking in the piece I linked to was the best thinking of the day, but it reflects the circling of the wagons of the church 15 or so years after Darwin.
And, it's a logical and natural extension of sola scriptura. It IS all Reformationy that way.
Anmd I have the utmost respect for it, as history. Not so much for anyone today who still clings to it -- I mean people who really should know better. My own beloved eighth-grade-educated mama, and others like her, for example.
Anmd I have the utmost respect for it, as history. Not so much for anyone today who still clings to it -- I mean people who really should know better. My own beloved eighth-grade-educated mama, and others like her, for example.
ER,
You ask what if God intended something different for the universe originally, but now it is exactly as he inends it now.
I guess it depends on your perspective.
It doesn't make sense to me for God to be changeable. The God who created the universe seems constant. The God of the Bible seems very changeable, which gives it more of a human character than divine. To me, if there is a Creator God (and I believe there is) it seems more likely that the constant universe is his WORD more than the Bible.
You ask what if God intended something different for the universe originally, but now it is exactly as he inends it now.
I guess it depends on your perspective.
It doesn't make sense to me for God to be changeable. The God who created the universe seems constant. The God of the Bible seems very changeable, which gives it more of a human character than divine. To me, if there is a Creator God (and I believe there is) it seems more likely that the constant universe is his WORD more than the Bible.
# posted by : 10:49 PM
: 10:49 PM
I have to be reminded from time to time that everything that is, as we underastand the concept of "being," is part of the Creation. Even life itself.
Which means that God is not "alive" in the way we understand the term.
Since all living things change, that's why it's easy to assume that God changes -- since we assume that God is alive, as we are alive, which is the most basic kind of anthropomorphism.
But if God is not "alive" in the sense that we are ... whoa.
Owie. Head hurts. :-)
If you haven't, Google "God's Debris" and read it. It's very interesting. :-)
Which means that God is not "alive" in the way we understand the term.
Since all living things change, that's why it's easy to assume that God changes -- since we assume that God is alive, as we are alive, which is the most basic kind of anthropomorphism.
But if God is not "alive" in the sense that we are ... whoa.
Owie. Head hurts. :-)
If you haven't, Google "God's Debris" and read it. It's very interesting. :-)
Briefly, what I mean by "autographs" is the original texts; I didn't think the term was quite that foreign, and I believe the only idiocy on display was Geoffrey's inane comments.
I've explained in the earlier thread that I do not believe that inerrant inspiration requires verbatim dictation. And, I don't believe that free will is eradicated if the Bible's writers chose to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
I've explained in the earlier thread that I do not believe that inerrant inspiration requires verbatim dictation. And, I don't believe that free will is eradicated if the Bible's writers chose to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
# posted by : 9:43 PM
: 9:43 PM
Ha!
Re, "And, I don't believe that free will is eradicated if the Bible's writers chose to be guided by the Holy Spirit."
But if you claim inerrancy, then you claim perfection by those men, which, even IF guided by the Holy Ghost of God Almighty God's Self, is idolatry, since NO THING in this world is perfect!
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Re, "And, I don't believe that free will is eradicated if the Bible's writers chose to be guided by the Holy Spirit."
But if you claim inerrancy, then you claim perfection by those men, which, even IF guided by the Holy Ghost of God Almighty God's Self, is idolatry, since NO THING in this world is perfect!
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