Sunday, February 10, 2008
Los Estados del Norte Americano Unidos ........ (y con Canada?)
DrLobo says, among many other things:
"We need open our borders and then to tell Mexico exactly how their economic problems are going to be solved and how they are going to kiss our ass in the mean time."
HapaThealogy says:
" ... Actually, we need to get out of Mexico's business and let them run their own country. They'd do a lot better if certain folks didn't keep trying to manage their economy so that it benefits the U.S. at their expense. Change happens when people do it themselves, not when someone does it for them. Isn't that what we're talking about here? Yes WE can, not Yes, someone can do it for us."
ER says:
"Isn't it too late for that? Isn't Mexico aleady a virtual vassal? The biggest Latin American country is the United States now. It boggles that candidates for office in Mexico campaign in the United States, raise money int he United States, and have constituencies who votre for them -- in the United States.
"It's too late to turn back.
"An actual open border would be more honest than what we have now. With such, we all should have a say in how the two countries, already intertwined, then formally acknowledged, go forward."
What say y'all? Los Estados del Norte Americano Unidos: Is it inevitable?
--ER
(Yes, we can)
"We need open our borders and then to tell Mexico exactly how their economic problems are going to be solved and how they are going to kiss our ass in the mean time."
HapaThealogy says:
" ... Actually, we need to get out of Mexico's business and let them run their own country. They'd do a lot better if certain folks didn't keep trying to manage their economy so that it benefits the U.S. at their expense. Change happens when people do it themselves, not when someone does it for them. Isn't that what we're talking about here? Yes WE can, not Yes, someone can do it for us."
ER says:
"Isn't it too late for that? Isn't Mexico aleady a virtual vassal? The biggest Latin American country is the United States now. It boggles that candidates for office in Mexico campaign in the United States, raise money int he United States, and have constituencies who votre for them -- in the United States.
"It's too late to turn back.
"An actual open border would be more honest than what we have now. With such, we all should have a say in how the two countries, already intertwined, then formally acknowledged, go forward."
What say y'all? Los Estados del Norte Americano Unidos: Is it inevitable?
--ER
(Yes, we can)
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ER:"What say y'all? Los Estados del Norte Americano Unidos: Is it inevitable?"
It is already here. We are just too stupid to recognize it. National and racial pride is standing in the way of all of us.
We can not close the border. That is a grand and stupid lie. We can regulate it.
Mexico cannot be viable without the economy of the U.S. and Canada integrated into it, and our economies can not grow without an educated labor force from outside our populations. Mexico can develop into that source.
NAFTA was a small start. Now we are doing stupid things like closing the borders and not letting the temporary Mexican laborers go back home like they used to. 200 million people a year cross back and forth along just the U.S. Canadian border and we are about to try to choke that down.
Dumb dumb dumb.
We aren't going to keep terrorist out that way. That is stupid. All we are doing is screwing Canada, Mexico, and the U.S..
We need to integrate our police, military, and economic systems with careful planning and implementation. Social and Cultural integration will take care of itself.
It is already here. We are just too stupid to recognize it. National and racial pride is standing in the way of all of us.
We can not close the border. That is a grand and stupid lie. We can regulate it.
Mexico cannot be viable without the economy of the U.S. and Canada integrated into it, and our economies can not grow without an educated labor force from outside our populations. Mexico can develop into that source.
NAFTA was a small start. Now we are doing stupid things like closing the borders and not letting the temporary Mexican laborers go back home like they used to. 200 million people a year cross back and forth along just the U.S. Canadian border and we are about to try to choke that down.
Dumb dumb dumb.
We aren't going to keep terrorist out that way. That is stupid. All we are doing is screwing Canada, Mexico, and the U.S..
We need to integrate our police, military, and economic systems with careful planning and implementation. Social and Cultural integration will take care of itself.
Why does this sound so radical? Because the last time the United States absorbed another sovereign nation(s) was 100 years ago?
I caution myself, ovr my use of "the United States absorbed." But then, is there a difference between a merger and an acquisition? It usually depends on who sends out the press release. ...
I caution myself, ovr my use of "the United States absorbed." But then, is there a difference between a merger and an acquisition? It usually depends on who sends out the press release. ...
NAFTA benefited no one except the big multinational corporations. Corporate heads were involved in writing NAFTA policies in México. That's what I mean when I say we need to get out of their business, we need to stop letting big money types treat other countries like Monopoly cards that they can cash in for money. And we, the U.S., needs to not go down and "save" México, but to support México in what it needs to revitalize its economy, and to let México decide what it needs instead of the US doing it with an eye toward what will benefit only the US. That's not a partnership, but that's how we act.
As for open borders -- most people who live on the border don't want open borders, they want smarter borders. Open up the visa process is more like it, let people work here like they did for decades, except with labor protections that every worker deserves.
I went on a Borderlinks trip last year, spent a week getting the hard facts from the people who are really down in the dirt on this issue. I recommend that for everyone.
¡Sí, se puede!
As for open borders -- most people who live on the border don't want open borders, they want smarter borders. Open up the visa process is more like it, let people work here like they did for decades, except with labor protections that every worker deserves.
I went on a Borderlinks trip last year, spent a week getting the hard facts from the people who are really down in the dirt on this issue. I recommend that for everyone.
¡Sí, se puede!
Re, "smarter borders"
You know, I was against NAFTA at the time from a protectionist standpoint -- a U.S. protectionist standpoint, which, actually, is "liberal" in the sense that it doesn't suckle at the teat of the Free Trade Goddess. Really, a U.S. worker, consumer everyday person protectionist standpoint.
I think I'm a lot more attuned now to the notion of protectionism of all players -- all the everyday people among the international players, I mean.
Which might be closer to what Hapa is talking about.
There is no "open border," really, as long as the border remains. But, "smarter," I like that.
You know, I was against NAFTA at the time from a protectionist standpoint -- a U.S. protectionist standpoint, which, actually, is "liberal" in the sense that it doesn't suckle at the teat of the Free Trade Goddess. Really, a U.S. worker, consumer everyday person protectionist standpoint.
I think I'm a lot more attuned now to the notion of protectionism of all players -- all the everyday people among the international players, I mean.
Which might be closer to what Hapa is talking about.
There is no "open border," really, as long as the border remains. But, "smarter," I like that.
Re, Drlobojo's "We need to integrate our police, military, and economic systems with careful planning and implementation."
It's easy to read that as "we need to merge" all the above, and maybe that's what I understood him to man, and maybe that's not what he meant. Because "integrate," now that I think about it, doesn't mean dissolve all into one; it's more like mixing salt and pepper: the salt and the pepper each retains its distinctiveness.
It's easy to read that as "we need to merge" all the above, and maybe that's what I understood him to man, and maybe that's not what he meant. Because "integrate," now that I think about it, doesn't mean dissolve all into one; it's more like mixing salt and pepper: the salt and the pepper each retains its distinctiveness.
As for what people along the border think or know, most of the 12 to 20 million illegals in the U.S. and 1 million in Canada do not live along the border. They live deep in the heart of Dixie, Chicago, Kansas City, L.A., Imperial Valley, and up along the Sacramento, not to mention Salt lake City, Spokane, Detroit, and Milwalkee. It is NOT a Boarder problem, it never has been. It is a public policy problem. So long as we are dumb having smart borders won't mean nothin.
Merge, intergrate, symbiosis, the enforcement agencies what ever, they need to function with a united purpose such a law enforcement not political protection.
Make John Edwards Secretary of Labor. Enforce our labor laws with a strong well funded effort and make new laws to allow the cross border economy to be regulated.
We are letting a loud mouth pig headed 10% of our population decide that we should become the classic Know Nothings of the 19th century.
Of course NAFTA benifited the big multinationals. How else are we suppose to function in the 21st Century? Cottage Industries? Free Trade Coffee? Not hardly, appoint someone like Bill Richardson to head up the Department of Commerce and let him tie a wire around every set of corporate gonades that do business in America. When we need their attention and cooperation, give the wires a jerk or send some current down them.
Turn treasury onto these offshore corporations and attach their U.S. asseset for back taxes. Inforce the Laws. Enforce the Laws Enforce the Laws.
Meixco has been and still is run by one half of one percent of their population. Where do they keep their money? Enforce the Laws.
Finally, common sense, after the warming comes the cold. The cold comes 10 times faster than the warming. That is geography not politics. Canada and half of the U.S. will have to move South within the next 100 years or so. Think about it.
Merge, intergrate, symbiosis, the enforcement agencies what ever, they need to function with a united purpose such a law enforcement not political protection.
Make John Edwards Secretary of Labor. Enforce our labor laws with a strong well funded effort and make new laws to allow the cross border economy to be regulated.
We are letting a loud mouth pig headed 10% of our population decide that we should become the classic Know Nothings of the 19th century.
Of course NAFTA benifited the big multinationals. How else are we suppose to function in the 21st Century? Cottage Industries? Free Trade Coffee? Not hardly, appoint someone like Bill Richardson to head up the Department of Commerce and let him tie a wire around every set of corporate gonades that do business in America. When we need their attention and cooperation, give the wires a jerk or send some current down them.
Turn treasury onto these offshore corporations and attach their U.S. asseset for back taxes. Inforce the Laws. Enforce the Laws Enforce the Laws.
Meixco has been and still is run by one half of one percent of their population. Where do they keep their money? Enforce the Laws.
Finally, common sense, after the warming comes the cold. The cold comes 10 times faster than the warming. That is geography not politics. Canada and half of the U.S. will have to move South within the next 100 years or so. Think about it.
You all sound like unreconstructed Confederates. Surely you are aware Confederate foreign policy included Manifest Destiny south through Mexico and Central America and in to the Caribbean.
My thought is simple - a recognition of the sovereignty of Mexico, whose language, history, and variegated cultures most Americans are completely ignorant of; whose culture of official corruption exacerbates its multitude of social problems; whose history of separation of church and state is far more radical than our own; and from whom we've already removed about half the territory in a lop-sided war, won at a battle named for someone for a fat head, Cerro Gordo (incidentally, the IL militia involved claimed the prize of Santa Ana's wooden leg, housed in a museum in a small town renamed after the battle; I think it was returned to Mexico fairly recently).
It would be far better to accommodate those within our borders, have an open door policy, while maintaining a smart border policy, recognizing the reality of the differences between us. Oh, and providing whatever help we can possibly provide to counter the rampant corruption that allows for the drug and human trade to flourish south of the border.
My thought is simple - a recognition of the sovereignty of Mexico, whose language, history, and variegated cultures most Americans are completely ignorant of; whose culture of official corruption exacerbates its multitude of social problems; whose history of separation of church and state is far more radical than our own; and from whom we've already removed about half the territory in a lop-sided war, won at a battle named for someone for a fat head, Cerro Gordo (incidentally, the IL militia involved claimed the prize of Santa Ana's wooden leg, housed in a museum in a small town renamed after the battle; I think it was returned to Mexico fairly recently).
It would be far better to accommodate those within our borders, have an open door policy, while maintaining a smart border policy, recognizing the reality of the differences between us. Oh, and providing whatever help we can possibly provide to counter the rampant corruption that allows for the drug and human trade to flourish south of the border.
Re, "recognition of the sovereignty of Mexico ..."
If, as is our national belief, "sovereignty" rests with the people, then it seems clear to me that the sovereignty of Mexico is even more of a joke, in practice, than it is in our own country.
Re, "whose culture of official corruption exacerbates its multitude of social problems ..."
See above.
Re, "whose history of separation of church and state is far more radical than our own ..."
Yer kidding, right? The practical effect, if not the letter of the law, of the Catholic Church's historical relationship with the power structures in Mexico are Focus on the Family's wet dream for the United States. ... My own hyperbole aside, I don't know how the concept of separation of church and state in Mexico is radical, unless it's radically absent, unless something drastic has happened in he ... doing math ... 20 years since I studied the politics and culture of Latin America -- and I admit it might have. ...
If, as is our national belief, "sovereignty" rests with the people, then it seems clear to me that the sovereignty of Mexico is even more of a joke, in practice, than it is in our own country.
Re, "whose culture of official corruption exacerbates its multitude of social problems ..."
See above.
Re, "whose history of separation of church and state is far more radical than our own ..."
Yer kidding, right? The practical effect, if not the letter of the law, of the Catholic Church's historical relationship with the power structures in Mexico are Focus on the Family's wet dream for the United States. ... My own hyperbole aside, I don't know how the concept of separation of church and state in Mexico is radical, unless it's radically absent, unless something drastic has happened in he ... doing math ... 20 years since I studied the politics and culture of Latin America -- and I admit it might have. ...
??
"Surely you are aware Confederate foreign policy included Manifest Destiny south through Mexico and Central America and in to the Caribbean."
Um, that was *American* foreign policy -- driven by Southerners, I acknowledge -- right up until the formation of the Confederacy, when the North got distracted by the task of trying to hold the united states together.
"Surely you are aware Confederate foreign policy included Manifest Destiny south through Mexico and Central America and in to the Caribbean."
Um, that was *American* foreign policy -- driven by Southerners, I acknowledge -- right up until the formation of the Confederacy, when the North got distracted by the task of trying to hold the united states together.
After the 1911 Revolution, Mexico disestablished the Catholic Church, and places all sorts of social and political barriers in the way of political activity of priests. While the church has certain social power due to its overwhelming presence, legally, the Catholic Church in Mexico has few rights or privileges.
Ah, yes, legally ...
Mexico is no model of the principle of separation of church and state. I'm just sayin' ...
Mexico is no model of the principle of separation of church and state. I'm just sayin' ...
GKS said: "You all sound like unreconstructed Confederates. Surely you are aware Confederate foreign policy included Manifest Destiny south through Mexico and Central America and in to the Caribbean." Naw, not that was not Confederate, that was the United Fruit Company's Plan.
San Houston wanted to extend the nation of Texas from Brownsville to below the Baja, but the Texicans didn't want all those Mexicans in their population.
Post Mexican -American War the Slave -Southern U.S. Senators did want to add the mineral rich North to the United States, but....Gadsden Purchase.
"As originally envisioned, the purchase would have encompassed a much larger region, extending far enough south to include most of the current Mexican states of Coahuila, Chihuahua, Sonora, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas as well as all of the Baja California peninsula. These original boundaries were opposed not only by the Mexican people but also by anti-slavery U.S. Senators who saw the purchase as tantamount to the acquisition of more slave territory. Even the small strip of land that was ultimately acquired was enough to anger the Mexican people, who saw Santa Anna's actions as yet another betrayal of their country and watched in dismay as he squandered the funds generated by the Purchase. The Gadsden Purchase helped to end Santa Anna's political career."
San Houston wanted to extend the nation of Texas from Brownsville to below the Baja, but the Texicans didn't want all those Mexicans in their population.
Post Mexican -American War the Slave -Southern U.S. Senators did want to add the mineral rich North to the United States, but....Gadsden Purchase.
"As originally envisioned, the purchase would have encompassed a much larger region, extending far enough south to include most of the current Mexican states of Coahuila, Chihuahua, Sonora, Nuevo León, and Tamaulipas as well as all of the Baja California peninsula. These original boundaries were opposed not only by the Mexican people but also by anti-slavery U.S. Senators who saw the purchase as tantamount to the acquisition of more slave territory. Even the small strip of land that was ultimately acquired was enough to anger the Mexican people, who saw Santa Anna's actions as yet another betrayal of their country and watched in dismay as he squandered the funds generated by the Purchase. The Gadsden Purchase helped to end Santa Anna's political career."
Language is a frame. "Illegals" is dehumanizing and patently inaccurate, seeing as the "law" that they're breaking is unjust and in dire need of updating. I know it's fallen into shorthand, but I try not to give the other side the satisfaction of knowing that they're controlling my brain.
And yes, the corruption in Mexico is a problem, and it's something that Mexico and Mexicans are dealing with. (Ha, like the U.S. doesn't have corruption problems either that WE need to deal with.) But real change is slow and takes time, and it's happening. It would be lovely if we did something to encourage that kind of change.
And -- my favorite scene in that crappy movie The Day After Tomorrow was the part where all the Americans were running down to Mexico to get away from the evil cold monster and Mexico closed its borders. I cracked up because that's the way we view the border, we don't consider that if the tables were turned, we'd do the same thing (how many people bitching about the border work for cash off the books themselves, I wonder?). Of course, down south when the global warming monster comes there will be droughts and hurricanes and violent storms. Learn Spanish anyway, it's a beautiful language and Spanish soap operas are much better than English ones.
And yes, the corruption in Mexico is a problem, and it's something that Mexico and Mexicans are dealing with. (Ha, like the U.S. doesn't have corruption problems either that WE need to deal with.) But real change is slow and takes time, and it's happening. It would be lovely if we did something to encourage that kind of change.
And -- my favorite scene in that crappy movie The Day After Tomorrow was the part where all the Americans were running down to Mexico to get away from the evil cold monster and Mexico closed its borders. I cracked up because that's the way we view the border, we don't consider that if the tables were turned, we'd do the same thing (how many people bitching about the border work for cash off the books themselves, I wonder?). Of course, down south when the global warming monster comes there will be droughts and hurricanes and violent storms. Learn Spanish anyway, it's a beautiful language and Spanish soap operas are much better than English ones.
Happa Theo Said: "...crappy movie The Day After Tomorrow was the part where all the Americans were running down to Mexico to get away from the evil cold monster and Mexico closed its borders."
See we need to be nice now!
Start to full blown the last ice age took about 50 years. Not as fast as in the movies but a lot damn faster than most people could dream of. Cut off the the Gulf Stream and the Northern Hemisphere get's damn cold damn quick. Lower the temperature melt the fresh water land ice, it cuts off the Gulf Stream and off we go in the other direction.
See we need to be nice now!
Start to full blown the last ice age took about 50 years. Not as fast as in the movies but a lot damn faster than most people could dream of. Cut off the the Gulf Stream and the Northern Hemisphere get's damn cold damn quick. Lower the temperature melt the fresh water land ice, it cuts off the Gulf Stream and off we go in the other direction.
That was a great flick! For what it was. ... But then, I saw "Twister" three times, in the theater, and got my pic taken standin' next to "Dorothy" down at OU the other day!
One more point, the United States sends more than $65 Billion net to Mexico each year in legal trade and remitanaces from illegal workers sending money home from the United States. That's a very big chunk of Mexico annual gross product. We are already integrated into each other's economies. We need to make it legal.
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