Friday, February 01, 2008
Soul market hangs on location, location ...
"... the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few Marines! God has a hard-on for Marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand?"
--Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, in "Full Metal Jacket"
Not sure what to think of this -- "Costs per Baptism." Oh, who am I foolin'? My first cynical thoughts were:
"That money might have been better spent."
"I wonder if the investors thought they got their money's worth."
"What kind of return can the investors expect on their investment?"
"Is there a futures market for souls?"
"What heppens to the cost of souls during times of inflation? Recession?"
"Has there ever been a soul 'bubble' where irrational exuberance falsely inflates their value until, like all bubbles, there is a bust and market collapse and the price of souls crashes?"
I'm suspicious of these kinds of figures. I'm suspicious of anything that separates concern for "souls" from concern for people.
I'm suspicious of any accounting system that purports to gauge God's involvement in the world, and in people's hearts and lives, by tallying up the "churched" versus the "unchurched," the numbers of "church starts" versus closed churches, levels of donation or spending or anything else that can be added up.
That's market share, and that's religion. Very Western. There ain't much holy about it, in my book, which, in fact, is the Good Book and all its mysteries, not a ledger or Excel spreadsheet and generally accepted accounting practices.
Discuss: What cost the Gospel of Christ?
"Critical, cynical and suspicious is no way to go through life, son," someone said.*
"Keeps me warm," ER said.**
(One ER '70s-'80s Movie Point for ID of the two movies referenced. * is a corruption of the quote. ** is verbatim.)
--ER
--Gunnery Sgt. Hartman, in "Full Metal Jacket"
Not sure what to think of this -- "Costs per Baptism." Oh, who am I foolin'? My first cynical thoughts were:
"That money might have been better spent.""I wonder if the investors thought they got their money's worth."
"What kind of return can the investors expect on their investment?"
"Is there a futures market for souls?"
"What heppens to the cost of souls during times of inflation? Recession?"
"Has there ever been a soul 'bubble' where irrational exuberance falsely inflates their value until, like all bubbles, there is a bust and market collapse and the price of souls crashes?"
I'm suspicious of these kinds of figures. I'm suspicious of anything that separates concern for "souls" from concern for people.
I'm suspicious of any accounting system that purports to gauge God's involvement in the world, and in people's hearts and lives, by tallying up the "churched" versus the "unchurched," the numbers of "church starts" versus closed churches, levels of donation or spending or anything else that can be added up.
That's market share, and that's religion. Very Western. There ain't much holy about it, in my book, which, in fact, is the Good Book and all its mysteries, not a ledger or Excel spreadsheet and generally accepted accounting practices.
Discuss: What cost the Gospel of Christ?
"Critical, cynical and suspicious is no way to go through life, son," someone said.*
"Keeps me warm," ER said.**
(One ER '70s-'80s Movie Point for ID of the two movies referenced. * is a corruption of the quote. ** is verbatim.)
--ER
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The actual is: "Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son."
To which Flounder replied: "Huuuh. (splat)
Next scene, Flounder (Kent Dorfmann): "I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer."
Boon: "Face it, Kent, you threw up ON Dean Wormer."
I got more from that movie, but I don't recall the warmer conversation.
To which Flounder replied: "Huuuh. (splat)
Next scene, Flounder (Kent Dorfmann): "I can't believe I threw up in front of Dean Wormer."
Boon: "Face it, Kent, you threw up ON Dean Wormer."
I got more from that movie, but I don't recall the warmer conversation.
Caveat Lector:
Carefully analysing the data in the article noted, I would have to say the Antarctic per soul cost is a poor investment. After all they can be kept on ice while the more urgent needs of a volatile Africa are addressed. The Africa population pyramid is becoming flatter and flatter every year due to the increased death rates. These souls should have priority before the pyramid peek actually dips below the age of accountability.
Now of course if you subscribe to the Roman Church doctrine of salvation is for the sake of the Church and can be conferred by the Church as emissary then an emergency program of post-natal Baptism would be in order in Africa and elsewhere. That would be the most cost effective methodology and would save on other future cost as well.
For example if the dilemma that occurred during the Albigensian Crusades, of not knowing which of the victims were Catholic or not, the immediate post-natal baptism into the Church will have marked those souls for identification by God after the fact, so that a more efficient, and less expensive, killing spree could be carried out.
However given the low live birth rates per pregnancy in some African countries we may need to explore the doctrinal possibility of prenatal baptism into the Holy Mother Church. Given that we now understand the miracle of the soul is present in the human reproductive cells after the first division of such then we need to address that dangerous period from conception to birth where the soul lays spiritually unprotected in the mother's womb.
Prenatal Baptism is a subject that needs to be considered. Whether that would mean a symbolic sprinkling of the woman's abdomen carrying the early child or some more intrusive infusion of holy baptism directly onto the living dividing cells of the soul's container is up for consideration.
But as in the original consideration, the unit cost per soul should be considered.
Carefully analysing the data in the article noted, I would have to say the Antarctic per soul cost is a poor investment. After all they can be kept on ice while the more urgent needs of a volatile Africa are addressed. The Africa population pyramid is becoming flatter and flatter every year due to the increased death rates. These souls should have priority before the pyramid peek actually dips below the age of accountability.
Now of course if you subscribe to the Roman Church doctrine of salvation is for the sake of the Church and can be conferred by the Church as emissary then an emergency program of post-natal Baptism would be in order in Africa and elsewhere. That would be the most cost effective methodology and would save on other future cost as well.
For example if the dilemma that occurred during the Albigensian Crusades, of not knowing which of the victims were Catholic or not, the immediate post-natal baptism into the Church will have marked those souls for identification by God after the fact, so that a more efficient, and less expensive, killing spree could be carried out.
However given the low live birth rates per pregnancy in some African countries we may need to explore the doctrinal possibility of prenatal baptism into the Holy Mother Church. Given that we now understand the miracle of the soul is present in the human reproductive cells after the first division of such then we need to address that dangerous period from conception to birth where the soul lays spiritually unprotected in the mother's womb.
Prenatal Baptism is a subject that needs to be considered. Whether that would mean a symbolic sprinkling of the woman's abdomen carrying the early child or some more intrusive infusion of holy baptism directly onto the living dividing cells of the soul's container is up for consideration.
But as in the original consideration, the unit cost per soul should be considered.
Holy crap, Drlobo.
Your analysis is the single most interesting piece of writing to ever appear on this blog.
Saaaa-LUTE!
The population pleak dipping below the age of accountability! Prenatal Baptism! You slay me -- so to speak.
Your analysis is the single most interesting piece of writing to ever appear on this blog.
Saaaa-LUTE!
The population pleak dipping below the age of accountability! Prenatal Baptism! You slay me -- so to speak.
ER said: "Your analysis is the single most interesting piece of writing to ever appear on this blog. Saaaa-LUTE!"
Well, whether that be sarcasm or salutation I'll accept it. Either are as valuable as the other in the slender world of Blogistan.
Well, whether that be sarcasm or salutation I'll accept it. Either are as valuable as the other in the slender world of Blogistan.
Wadn't sarcasm!
You should start an academic journal patterned after The Onion.
What would that be called??
You should start an academic journal patterned after The Onion.
What would that be called??
I read the linked post, and I honestly have no idea what the hell the guy is talking about. Is this some kind of ratio of Christians to non-Christians? Is it a proportion, per some number of population, of the number of those in the Christian mission field?
Furthermore, does the person who wrote this believe that in some manner, fashion, or form these numbers mean anything when dealing with the workings of God?
This ignorant little fellow from the very snowy upper Midwest needs some help, if you would.
By the way - Full Metal Jacket is without a doubt the best war movie, the best movie about Vietnam, and one of the most emotionally troubling movies I have ever seen. The ending . . . what hath the United States wrought, you know?
As for Animal House - it is sui generis as far as I am concerned. My love and admiration for that film is in a class by itself. After all, where else can you see John Belushi smash a guitar, a parade float with "Eat Me" on it, and a pubescent boy get his wish granted, along with Kevin Bacon getting his ass whupped by a fraternity paddle? All that and "Shout" with beer.
Furthermore, does the person who wrote this believe that in some manner, fashion, or form these numbers mean anything when dealing with the workings of God?
This ignorant little fellow from the very snowy upper Midwest needs some help, if you would.
By the way - Full Metal Jacket is without a doubt the best war movie, the best movie about Vietnam, and one of the most emotionally troubling movies I have ever seen. The ending . . . what hath the United States wrought, you know?
As for Animal House - it is sui generis as far as I am concerned. My love and admiration for that film is in a class by itself. After all, where else can you see John Belushi smash a guitar, a parade float with "Eat Me" on it, and a pubescent boy get his wish granted, along with Kevin Bacon getting his ass whupped by a fraternity paddle? All that and "Shout" with beer.
ER said: "You should start an academic journal patterned after The Onion. What would that be called??"
An autobigraphy?
"Full Metal Jacket" was an excellent vision of Nam if you were a marine during the Tet.
But for the Army maddness it takes the scenes from the 1st Air Cav in "Apocolypse Now" to tell the story. Mickey Mouse to the "smell of Napalm in the morning", good thing we learn from our mistakes.
An autobigraphy?
"Full Metal Jacket" was an excellent vision of Nam if you were a marine during the Tet.
But for the Army maddness it takes the scenes from the 1st Air Cav in "Apocolypse Now" to tell the story. Mickey Mouse to the "smell of Napalm in the morning", good thing we learn from our mistakes.
Oh. Geoffrey, the professor of evangelism who posted the link says it is an average cost in dollars per baptism in each place.
Now, I know churches and organizations have budgets like any other, but Jesus.
But. Jesus.
I don't mean to mock. And I'm not mocking the spreading of the Gospel. I am mocking the conflation of budgeting for organizations with the spreading of the Gospel.
To me, that should be kind of the same way newsrooms operate, or used to, and are supposed to:
RETURN is not out problem. Getting the word out is. Just as it really is impossible to gauge actual readership, it's impossible to gauge where seed takes root.
Adding up circulation figures, and counting baptisms, is not the same.
Now, I know churches and organizations have budgets like any other, but Jesus.
But. Jesus.
I don't mean to mock. And I'm not mocking the spreading of the Gospel. I am mocking the conflation of budgeting for organizations with the spreading of the Gospel.
To me, that should be kind of the same way newsrooms operate, or used to, and are supposed to:
RETURN is not out problem. Getting the word out is. Just as it really is impossible to gauge actual readership, it's impossible to gauge where seed takes root.
Adding up circulation figures, and counting baptisms, is not the same.
"What cost the Gospel of Christ?"
The Blood of God. Acts 20:28 (KJV)
Church starts versus church closes?
The Church isn't a building. It's the congregation. The only church closing that matters is the end of the Church Age.
Over-all I agree. Jesus didn't call us to go into business. He called us to fish. And you can't put a price on the catch.
The Blood of God. Acts 20:28 (KJV)
Church starts versus church closes?
The Church isn't a building. It's the congregation. The only church closing that matters is the end of the Church Age.
Over-all I agree. Jesus didn't call us to go into business. He called us to fish. And you can't put a price on the catch.
EL, I am not as startled, I don't think, when you and I agree overall, as I bet you are. :-) (I don't buy the "church age" thing, as la Scofield's notes, but you and I know that.) :-)
Geoffrey, yes, money is exactly what the link is about: an average cost per baptism (i.e., per soul).
Geoffrey, yes, money is exactly what the link is about: an average cost per baptism (i.e., per soul).
BTW, I picked up this item while walkin' by Neil's Fundamentalist Candy Store. I'm trainin' my se;f to ealk by and look at what's in the display window without actually goin' inside! Temptin' fate, perhaps. :-)
BTW 2.0, idn't that a great piece of art up there? Michael hagglin' with the Devil over the price of a soul! (Note the exact name of the piece). I'd never seen it or heard of until I went lookin' for somethin' to go with this post.
What cost the Gospel of Christ? About 30 silver, wadn't it?
I had no idear what that baptism-to-whatever-thingamathing was, I just thought it was math inability starting to show again. But crap, someone accused me of being "results-oriented" in a class last summer when I lamented the inability of the mainline churches to get a competing message out there into the public sphere to counter more fundamental commercial slogans. This has me whooped.
I had no idear what that baptism-to-whatever-thingamathing was, I just thought it was math inability starting to show again. But crap, someone accused me of being "results-oriented" in a class last summer when I lamented the inability of the mainline churches to get a competing message out there into the public sphere to counter more fundamental commercial slogans. This has me whooped.
Ha! ...
Hey, I am for results: naked clothed, hungrey fed, homeless sheltered, and so on. And that stuff, in any organization, has to have a budget.
As for the higher-plane stuff: To borrow a parable, I'm for knowing how much seed costs, how much it costs to plant it and water it and fertilize it. But I am mortified at the notion that we can claim anything in the way of harvest (and that's what "baptism" represents to these guys). And to put a dollar figure on THAT is obscene.
Ya know it just now occurred to me that that's why some of y'all didn't "get" this post at first!
Baptism is not something that happens to little babies in most of the eveangelical world. It's something that people do to represent their conscious decision to become Christians -- or to hop over a great divide, something they do after they realize they have been saved. In that way of thinking, a baptism represents a saved soul. If it's genuine. The baptism, I mean.
Hey, I am for results: naked clothed, hungrey fed, homeless sheltered, and so on. And that stuff, in any organization, has to have a budget.
As for the higher-plane stuff: To borrow a parable, I'm for knowing how much seed costs, how much it costs to plant it and water it and fertilize it. But I am mortified at the notion that we can claim anything in the way of harvest (and that's what "baptism" represents to these guys). And to put a dollar figure on THAT is obscene.
Ya know it just now occurred to me that that's why some of y'all didn't "get" this post at first!
Baptism is not something that happens to little babies in most of the eveangelical world. It's something that people do to represent their conscious decision to become Christians -- or to hop over a great divide, something they do after they realize they have been saved. In that way of thinking, a baptism represents a saved soul. If it's genuine. The baptism, I mean.
"What cost the Gospel of Christ? About 30 silver, wadn't it?"
Oh, take my word for it they come much much cheaper than that!
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Oh, take my word for it they come much much cheaper than that!
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