Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

I was raised by an atheist father and a mother who didn't resist his stance. I found ways of sneaking off to VBS at a little Baptist church when I was 5, then to Sunday school sometimes at the neighborhood Evangelical United Brethren Church when I was in first grade. That was sporadic, and I never went to "big church" until I was in junior high. Then my best friend and I amused ourselves by writing "under the bed" after all the titles of hymns in the hymn book. That didn't last long.
Then when I was in high school I had my conversion moment, and with the help of my friends found my way to be baptized and joined that EUB church, which merged with the Methodists to form the United Methodists in 1968. I've been Methodist since then, except for a brief time while I was married when I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church. That also did not last long before I returned to the Methodist church.
I now am a member of First United Methodist of Ponca City. But because of weather and sheer exhaustion I have missed the past three Sunday mornings. I was grateful to make it to the Christmas Eve service, to carry me over.
After high school and through college, I had hopes and dreams and initial plans to attend seminary, in a time when only the first few brave women were doing so.
 

Thanks. That kind of precis is zactly what I was hoping for!

I've missed more services than not in December, including Christmas Eve, because of travel. And I'll be on the road this weekend too -- but I plan to visit some church in the Boulder area Sunday morning before heading back. I've visited two of three UCC churches up there so far.
 

A couple business items. My first issue of Foreign Affairs arrived, ER. Muchas gracias. I'm currently listening to "I'd Trade All Of My Tomorrow's" by Merle Haggard, on Pandora. Previously, Hank Snow, "Conscience, I'm Guilty". What great stuff! God, I've missed so much not really listening to this earlier in life.

I was baptized and confirmed in First United Methodist Church, Sayre, PA. I am currently a member of Poplar Grove UMC, Poplar Grove, IL, where my wife is senior pastor.

I never had a "conversion experience". Rather, I grew up with the teachings of Jesus as part and parcel of my identity. My decision to return to the church, after my brief respite during college, was made with a sense of relief, and of having to make up lost time. Seminary followed, and my faith went through a sea change. I have come out the other side of that particular bit of life fairly recently, and my faith is far simpler, and yet I hope deeper and more honest, than when I considered it necessary to be all "theological". (Marty Robbins now, after Buck Owens; I'd put these folks up with Bob Dylan as the great poets of America, the bards of freedom; sorry for the digression)

I consider myself a post-modern Christian, and am self-conscious about the limits within which anything I claim about God, or Jesus, or even the Church, exist. I am also self-conscious about that which drives me to continue to say them. It seems meaningless to some, perhaps most. Perhaps it is. It is who I am, and where I take my stand, however. Like another Christian many centuries ago, I declare that I can do no other. I trust to God's grace to make up the slack.
 

My parents raised my entire family at a Southern Baptist church in central Louisville - Victory Memorial Baptist Church. (It was thus named shortly after WWI, for our victory there, and the large stained glass window had a picture of Jesus holding/comforting a doughboy).

We flew an American flag on the Right and a Christian flag on the Left and pledged allegiance to both in VBS, along with pledging allegiance to the Bible.

It was a traditional So Bapt church, and that wasn't always a bad thing. They taught me to know and love the Bible and to this day, I'll pit my knowledge of the Bible against many Seminary grads. They taught the Bible long and hard and well, in many ways.

It was because of that teaching to love God's Word and follow God/walk in Jesus' steps - no matter what! - that I've come to be who I am today (much to the chagrin of many of them!)

I grew up there, attending Sunday morning, night, Wednesday night, Youth meetings on Saturday and Sunday after church, etc, etc, etc. We grew up in that church.

I left when I married at 22 to find a church home along with my wife - to make that decision together. She was a Southern Bapt Seminary student those first three years.

We attended a Nazarene Church at first - VERY small and inner city, then eventually moved to an urban Southern Baptist church (Baptist Tabernacle) that made a name for itself during the Civil Rights days.

My wife got a job there as a Church Social Worker and we were there for many years. During these years, we both continued to grow as humans and Christians. I discovered anabaptists and Quakers, much to my delight, for I was at last able to say, "HERE are some folk who believe much as I do! Much as what I think the Bible teaches."

And so, when we left, we found Jeff Street - joy oh joy! - and a perfect home. The one drawback was that they were "accepting" of gays - not just the sinner but the whole concept! Which is not where I was at, at all. Nonetheless, they were SO RIGHT ON in every other circumstance - a living embodiment of the early church at its best - that we began attending there.

And it has been to our great and marvelous joy. What a home! What a family!

And now you know much more than you could possibly have wanted to know.

I probably should have broken that down into smaller sections...
 

But please, please, PLEASE! Change your first sentence to "AN altar call."

I can't help it. My inner grammar teacher kept flinching.
 

D'oh!

I meant, "AN invitation."

Never fails. Go to correct someone's typo and, whoops...
 

Yikes! Fixed! My bad!

Dan, yer pre-marriage church experience seems to be almost an exact mirror of mine. If the doors were open and the lights were on, I was there. I had a key to the fellowship hall. Bible drills! Pledge to the U.S. flag! The Christian flag! The Bible! I was a Sunbeam! An R.A.! I was a VBS helper -- and right there, when I was maybe 16, was when I first started to get funny looks and reassignments for being what I later would learn was too sloppy with my concept of God's grace -- and too unwilling to hold myself, or others, to silly debatable details of doctrine.
 

Exactly mirror image. EXCEPT that I carried on the Harsh Grace beyond 16.

I was saved at ten, walked the aisle at a revival (I failed to mention the weeklong revival services we had once or twice a year) and escaped the hellfire and brimstone. RAs, Sword Drill, Summer Camps, Ridgecrest, Christian concerts, etc, etc, etc.

Then, at 16 - at a Ridgecrest Youth Camp - I "rededicated my life" (in Baptist parlance - was "sanctified" in Nazarene parlance). I was saying that I quite literally wanted to follow Jesus no matter what.

If the Bible teaches against violent answers, then by God! I would not use a violent answer (and thus began my walk on the wild side). If the Bible teaches repeatedly and strongly against the dangers of wealth and hyperconsumerism, then we sure as heck better take that seriously.

And so, because of my traditional So Bapt upbringing, I began to embrace parts of the Bible (the larger part, says I) that conservatives tend to avoid. But it was still in a very much judgemental, hellfire and brimstone sorta way.

It was my tentative edging away from some of the human traditions that were part of church life and towards where I am now, but there was still a heavy handed judgementalism aspect to it. My way or the highway to hell, was still my creed.

I was half-radical like that for about another ten-twelve years, gradually coming to where I am now and still gradually getting to where I'll be in another decade.
 

Interesting topic, ER. May have to carry on some of this over to my place.
 

The habit of heavey-handed judgmentalism is the hardest to break, a reality I occasionally exhbit in the blogosphere.
 

"Where there is Knowledge it will pass away."

Arius versus Athanasius, I swear when I went over to Neil's to see what hubbub he was creating. Based on the clanging gongs of unremittting certainty I thought I might be back in the fourth century.

I love the Ad Hoc simplicity of all of the aurguments presented to suport whatever point there was.

I especially love the use of a Biblical reference to prove a point that in actual context disproves the point. For example pointing to knowledge as all important by quoting I Corinthians 13:12 "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Not comprehending, I guess that the whole 13th chapter is a discourse by Paul showing that knowledge et. al. is fleeting and will come on its own eventually but that love is everlasting and supreme.


Consider his position in light of the whole:
1 Corinthians 13
Love:
1. If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10. but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13. And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

In actual theological thought many of the commentators at that place would be better classed as proto-gnostics rather than orthodox. They are ripe to be led into a special elite knowledge only the elect can comprehend.
 

So right you are, drlobojo.

I, too, checked out Neil's little piece. So much conviction without any sense of his having been convicted. Ah, well.
 

BTW, I just re-visited, and check out mom2's latest offering in comments:

#
mom2, on January 3rd, 2008 at 12:37 pm Said:

My daily devotional from an A. W. Tozer view yesterday was “Jesus Christ Is All That the Godhead Is”.
He says,
I advise you not to listen to those who spend their time demeaning the person of Christ.
I advise you to look beyond the cloudiness of modern terms used by those who themselves are not sure who Jesus Christ was in reality.
You cannot trust the man who can only say, “I believe that God revealed Himself through Christ.” Find out what he really believes about the person of the incarnate Son of God!
You cannot trust the man who will only say that Christ reflected more of God than other men do. Neither can you trust those who teach that Jesus Christ was the supreme religious genius, having the ability to catch and reflect more of God than any other man.
All of these approaches are insults to the Person of Jesus Christ. He was and is and can never cease to be God, and when we find Him and know Him, we are back at the ancient fountain again.
Christ is all that the Godhead is!

To which I responded, So, mom2 is a Unitarian?
 

Hey, check this out. I'd dang near join up with the UU's to get a T-shirt:

http://www.cafepress.com/unitees/548240
 

I was raised by conservative Evangelical Lutherans, but during my grade-school years, I was recruited to go to a Awana's youth group in a hell-fire-and-brimstone "non-denominational" church pastored by a Calvanist wife-abuser, philanderer and child-molester.

My mother put a stop to my attending that church after three years due to my increasingly erratic behavior.

A couple of years later, the pastor's wife shot him in the head while he slept, because he had said that he would kill her and their three remaining children (one had previously died)when he woke up.

My parents turned to Dr. Dobson for parenting expertise to fix my discipline problems. It was less than helpful.

I left home early to go work for an elderly quadrapalegic lady as her home health assistant, and finished high school.

I spent some time being a very angry person.

Several attempts to reconcile myself to Christianity failed, and I eventually gave up and became a Deist.

But I still can't help trying to figure out how the heck people can believe the "Sound Doctrine" that I was taught as a child...so I keep trying to understand it. It eludes my understanding.

I do find the insistance that "Sound Doctrine" provides a foundation for moral behavior that is superior in any way to any other philosophy or belief system, and I find those assertions to be noisome and dangerous, because I have seen too many instances where people could have avoided falling into terrible error if not for their terrible certainty.

But I guess one way or another, we'll find out one day. Maybe the Calvanists are right, and I am one of the hoplessly damned, never to be called by God.

But I think it's more likely that the God of creation is as constant in death as he is in life, and whatever comes will be according to his plan. Some of it I will probably delight in, and some of it I will probably find unpleasant.

But the world around me tells me that I will be provided with everything I need to exsist as I should (as I have been in this life).
 

My father was a rabid atheist, and my mother was into the occult when I was growing up, they've now become more moderate with my father saying he's a humanist (ignoring that rich history) and my mother just floating along as a New Age person.

When I came to know Jesus, I went to the only church I could handle -a street Baptist chuch where the pastor wore jeans and played the guitar, and many of the Christians were ex-prostitutes and street kids.

Then I went to Germany and married a non-believer and didn't go to church because it started too early in the morning. (The street church mercifully didn't start until 1 pm on Sundays and had Wed. night services, the German churches all start at 9:00-9:30 in the morning - another one of the things Emp. Konstantin decreed - it was right in between the feeding of his horses)

Needless to say I always felt this guilt looming over my head.

When my first kids were born I felt like I had to take them to church and because Baptist churches seemed to have the least strange traditions to this new Christian, I chose a Free Evangelical Baptist church in Heilbronn, and stayed until I came back to NA (5 years).

Back in Canada with my three little children, I went to the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church, but left because it was all married /families. And being a single mom, and with the extreme fear most churches had in the 90s of the "single woman" (stoked, I feel, by Focus on the Family and a couple of pastors who ran off with their secretaries), men were not allowed to be alone in the same room with me, and some even refused to say good morning on Sunday mornings (their wives thought I was too darn attractive, or maybe thought thought their husbands were such great finds that I wouldn't be able to control myself)(4 years).

Then went back to a Baptist Church in town, until the pastor, a very charismatic fellow (and well-known author), who loved to squash me up against walls when he was talking to me, started to do some even stranger, biblically unethical things in the church, causing a whole number of us to leave (5 years).

Then not knowing where to go any more, and feeling like I couldn't be a "member" of a small "c" church any longer, as, in my opinion, we're members of the big "C" Church anyway, I followed my children's lead, who wanted to visit the Christian Reformed Church (previously known as the Dutch Reformed Church) because many of their friends' families went there.
They happened to have a wonderful young, liberal pastor, and we stayed for a while and then I met my husband there.

I have, however huge problems with the Calvinist teachings, which has come to a head with me refusing to present my new baby daughter for baptism ( I'm a convinced anabaptist and can therefore not present anyone for baptism, seeing as I believe they have to choose to do so themselves after coming to know God)

It would be OK if you could just see it as a dedication , but they equate as being equal to circumcision and I quote : baptism setting the infant aside as chosen by God to be within the Calvinist tradition. Paedobaptism is therefore a sacrament.
The people, on the other hand are very down to earth - drinkers and some left-over smokers, relaxed on the virginity issues (which is huge in Baptist circles), very tolerant of everyone's sinful nature and very caring.

So where do I go from here? I don't know.


Trixie, I love your story ! Our adoption social worker had a similar one, in the sense that God attracted her as a young child -she grew up in England during WWII to parents who neglected their kids and let them wander the streets even as toddlers, and she loved to go to the neighboring church and go to Sunday School.

Her parents and siblings would insult her and call her names for doing that. Later her mother tried to kill her abusive father, and while mom was in jail, this little girl was sent to a Christian orphanage, where for the first time, people were kind to her and loved her, and where at the age of five she had her first bath.
She would sneak into the chapel there because she felt loved by God. Sadly she was sent back into that family when her mother got out, but, thank God, terrible childhoods don't last forever, and she has followed God all her life.
 

I think this is thre coolest thread ever.

And somebody could base a C&W album on this:

"My parents turned to Dr. Dobson for parenting expertise to fix my discipline problems. It was less than helpful."

Of course, it'd have to be rednecked up a mite.
 

You know, when my first batch of children were still young I read Dobson, because everyone thought he was so wonderful - until I came to a book where he suggested you keep a switch beside your child's bed, and every time the child got out of bed, you whipped him with it. This would keep the child in bed where he was supposed to stay. Then I heard of a woman in my circle of acquaintances who had read it as well and felt justified to have 1-2 hour devotionals with the kids, and if the children couldn't sit still, she took the wooden spoon and smacked them soundly across their heads.

That was the point in time I decided that James Dobson was certainly not on this earth to give me any advice, and if I get F on the F books as gifts, although I hate to destroy books, these find their way in the garbage right away.
 

I'm Tim. I showed up here b/c you linked to me in the "agnostic Christians" post. I was raised COGAI (Church of God--Anderson, Indiana), or generic midwestern evangelical. I went to fundie Asbury College and did a degree in Bible and Theology. Because I actually did my readings and thought about them, I stopped being a fundie, and stopped thinking in fundie terms about the Bible and Theology. Now I'm an Anglican/Episcopalian in hyper-liberal Seattle, endlessly frustrated by urban neo-fundies.
 

Cool! Howdy, Tim!

There is a very rich but, from what I can tell, very devout Church of God-Anderson business executive in OKC, who seems to put feet to his faith in a way that I admire. For what that's worth.

I'm tickled that you stopped by and I hope you find something 'round here to keep you comin' back!
 

Beth Haven Community Church
 

EL, is that the church you grew up in? Do you go regularly? It is non denominational? How did you wind up there. I really do want to know, and I will delete any snark from others, as long as you talk about your own experience without snarking on other faith traditions. ("Snark" is up to me, y'all, so please be judicious and kind; I admire EL for commenting on this thread, when he could reasonably expect hostility.)
 

I was a military brat... been all over the world, sooo... never spent any great length of time in any one place till AFTER high school. I did spend one fateful summer in Panama City, FL (where my immediate family now resides) where I got saved at a youth rally at the First Baptist Church of Panama City

Moved (as usual) less than a year later to Montgomery AL, where I fell away from the church for a time, and where I ended up in a private Catholic school.

Ten years later I'm in Dothan, AL where I encounter Bethany Bible College and Seminary, and Dr. Shuemake the Chancellor. I attend his church, Beth Haven, where it is as you may have guessed quite fundamental. But none of your or anyone else's take on fundamentalism accurately describes the church I attend-- I'm not particularly surprised.

We are not a traditional SB type church. For example, when it's time to pray, EVERYONE prays... out loud. Quite loud. Anyone can get up on the sing "specials." And there is no real "format" for how things go. The whole purpose of "church" is to worship God, not necessarily to hear a sermon-- sometimes we never get that far. It's all about worshiping our Lord and Savior.
 

Karen: "where do I go from here..."

Shop around and look at the Disciples of Christ Churches. They are ecumenical in nature, have women as elders and in ministerial positions and have been a haven for people who find their churches extreme in either direction(lots of Southern Baptist, Calvinist, and Catholic refugees here). Oh yes, we are anabaptist and we don't believe in original sin. We figure you have to rack up you own sins before you need to be forgiven.
 

Wow, that does sounds neat -
 

BTW, my parents were not particularly religious... my father was actually hostile toward it but allowed me brief forays into the belly of the beast nonetheless. Despite their ambivalence, I am where I am today by God's grace, not by anything they themselves believed or did not believe. I was pretty much neglected while I was growing up so I had to come into myself on my own... without much guidance from them. I am who I am today in spite of my parents. My Dad's dead and I don't expect to see him again. My Mom's still around and has started church... Methodist. I have serious doctrinal issues with the Methodists but that's not the point of this thread.
 

Thanks, EL. I share some of yer experience, especiallu this:

"For example, when it's time to pray, EVERYONE prays... out loud. Quite loud. Anyone can get up on the sing "specials." ..." etc., etc.

Also, I do know what you, and Trixie and others above, mean by a "conversion moment." I also respect who have not had such a singular experience, yet cannot help from counting themselves amontg the Church.
 

EL, this is the saddest thing, and I'm just shooting from the heart:

"My Dad's dead and I don't expect to see him again."

I could think of a bunch of things to say, and could even find verses to give you hope regarding him as to what kind of a person you think he was -- but, as you said, that is for another post.
 

Thanks Dr. Lobo,

there is a church in the next city I drag my hubby to whenever I need a break (which is quite often)- it's interdenominational and a lot of the university students go there - it's post-modern christian, and very God-loving/people validating, no matter what the gender.

The discussions about the church we go to are really interesting - it's the church my husband was born into (includung building) and he has strong loyalty issues towards the people (a good thing), which I seem to be lacking, because I feel I belong among Christians in general(also a good thing).

But we both agree that the issues are never salvation issues - even the baptism issue is not a salvation issue. I just can't bring myself to do it for someone else.
 

Parents both Christian: mom from a young age, dad as a young adult.

Me: Grades 1-6 we attended free methodists churches. One was a very small, like 10 family church.

grades 6 - college: we attended a large mega-church. Independent evangelical, personality driven, elders all older white men. I went to retreats and camps, learned how to lay witness (knock on doors and spout memorized material) learned about creation science, got baptized yet continued to feel like I should answer alter calls for years. I started a bible study at my public high school.

College: went to a private Christian college, but no regular church attendance. Theology classes taught me how to think critically about the bible, and the fallacy of inerrancy.

Post college (for 8 years?): attended a mid-sized Presbyterian church. They had a nice healthy mix of liturgy and modern worship, and encouraged (I felt) a more authentic exploration of faith than I had previously encountered. I lived in intentional community, did spiritual discipleship, got involved in leadership. Here I also explored a more ecumenical and social justice-focused version of faith. And started to push the boundaries of traditional tenets with like-minded friends (God is not male)

Recently, I've been moving away from organized religion into a more agnostic perspective. Certain life experiences and exposure to certain lines of thinking (K. Armstrong's History of God) got me questioning the structure and goals of organized religion. How much is religion a cultural/social construct? What if you don't fit in, don't conform to the required standards? I got to the point where I felt like much of underpinnings of organized religion relies on fear - fear of hell, sin, women, sex, losing converts. And I didn't want to be a part of that. So now I'm one of those people who I remember describing with disdain as practicing "new age spirituality" - mixing and matching things and trying to come up with my own authentic spiritual experience.

I've enjoyed your blog because it spoke to me in the transition from "Christian" to "follower of Jesus" to "agnostic" - reflecting a faith that embraces authenticity and ambiguity, and holds up love over fear.
 

"got baptized yet continued to feel like I should answer alter calls for years."

Clare,

This really hit home with me. I can't tell you how many times I got down on my knees and said the "come into my heart prayer" as a little girl...waiting for all the sensations and signs you are supposed to get when you are saved...

...nothing...nadda.
 

Teresa, you beat me to it:

"continued to feel like I should answer alter calls for years"

Bingo. THAT is the power of culture and a guilt-based approach to faith.

I wish y'all who are about done with organized Christianity could become part of the church I'm part of now. It's not for everyone, I know, and it's kind of an odd hybrid: Authentic New England-Puritan non-ornamental architecture, almost totally white interior, wonderful barrel ceiling that you only notice when standing at the altar and looking back; mostly what I consider "high church" music, Bach, classic hymns with updated inclusive language, although don't be surprised to hear someone on a guitar singing a Neil Young song; absoulutely wide-open Communion; and absolutely O&A. Social justice oriented. Very lefty oriented, although I think there is a gay woman Republican. :-) Bought and presented the "Saving Jesus" program last year (google it, I had to miss it, but it seems very good). John Shelby Spong held a workshop there a couple of years ago. Bottom line: You want to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus, a deist, a doubter, or stumble along as you go, no one will get in your way, and everyone will be there to steady you if needed. It is a Christian church. But what that means is pretty much left to the individual. I will MISS it terribly when I move. Sigh.
 

I noticed your comment at that site (a first timer there myself) and that's how I got here. You're now UCC? It was that sort of response. I used to be there myself. Grew up anabaptist; now ELCA (Lutheran).
 

Wow - where to start. I grew up in Chapel Hill United Methodist Church in OKC. My grandparents went there because they had to take my great-grandma there. She was a devoted Christian of a type you don't run across often. Her theological knowledge may have been a bit lacking but she more than made up for it with the way she treated others.

I left that church in high school for the more vibrant youth program at Church of the Servant, also UM. I was way into the camps, and trips, and youth programs - but I don't think that I was way into religion at that point.

When I wasn't in Methodist services as a child, I was in Catholic services with my stepdad. I couldn't participate fully, but that didn't bother me. Those services held a mystery for me that I didn't feel in any others.

After high school, I married into a Church of Christ family. That didn't go so well.

I didn't darken the door the door of a church for a number of years, yet I still believed in God and Christ. I had a disconnect between the community and the faith, and I couldn't find my place within either. I didn't realize that I wasn't really looking.

I remarried, this time to a man with no particular religious convictions other than belief in the basic tenets of the faith. He, too, had not been to chuch in years.

I "found" my faith and my place again in a strange way. I ended up in a religious philosophy class - I needed a philosophy credit that semester, and it was the only open class. It's rather backwards, but through the study of theology and religious philosophy, I've been able to reconnect with God and Christ. For me, it had to be an intellectual rather than a spritual experience.

We've found a little Methodist church here in our little town that we like. I have some doctrinal issues with the UMC, but I probably have doctrinal issues with every denomination.

My newest challenge is raising my daughter in the church. She's five, full of questions, and I worry about some of the answers she's been given.
 

I grew up in a mid sized presbyterian church. My mom was second generation Wheaton College grad, my dad a doctor.

My mom's dad was a baptist preacher and a local orgnizer for Billy Grahame revivals. My mom at a young age played piano for George Beverly Shay at a Grahame revival.

One interesting defining moments came when I was talking to my dad about religion. His quote: "if God really gave a damn about people on earth, I would be out of business." AS a doctor he saw a lot of bad suffering and kids dying from cancer and other things. My dad didn't go to church much.

My mom was active in the church I grew up in, and over time went to school for christian ed. She got her M.Div at age 65, and now at age 76 is a pastor at a small church.

In college, I went to a multi-denominational church with a American Baptist preacher. I went mainly for the Sunday evening meals.

Later I met and married a Catholic, and go to a fairly liberal catholic church with good music. Much like the churh music ER desctribes with Bach, and old traditional hymns.

I suppose I am a member of the christian alumni association that ER talks about on occasion. I probably fit the agnostic or deist definitions.
 

I don't rightly much here any more, and I doubt that changes, but L's comments provoked my own.

I moved to Oklahoma City in October 1999 and worked alongside ER and Trixie, though I began on the second shift that included weekends.

I was raised in a family that sporatically went to church. I still think my father attends for the right to be seen and not to worship, but that's my dad. My mother, on the other hand, would've been to the UMC of her liking several times per week had she given into it, because she was all about being involved.

Once my father retired and my parents retired to the small community in which they married in western Kansas, Mom became very active in the UMC. Leading the Methodist Women. Singing in the choir, despite no musical training whatsoever. Etc.

Upon my move to OKC, my mother was ill, fighting cancer. Any chance I got to venture the seven hours to be with her, I did, dismissing church because the weekend nights were wearing me out anyway. Besides, fellowship with Christians, especially those I love like no other, was just as important.

Upon her death in May 2000, I decided it was time to dedicate my life to learning more about my faith. I wanted to become a member of a church, something I hadn't done as an adult -- I had attended several churches, but I had never filed the roll to become a member.

That happened at the same Chapel Hill United Methodist Church L spoke of, and it was a blessing. The warmth that surrounded me was a blessing. The pastor, Guy Ames, is still one of the most marvelous people I've ever met, though he's no longer in OKC.

I wanted to carry on my mother's heritage and became more involved in the church. I met with my bosses at work and changed my schedule primarily so that I could be involved in the church. I was in the choir, despite, like my mother, I have had no musical training. I was involved in peer ministry, a counseling-type service offered through the church. I was learning more about God, my relationship with God and how I could grow.

Then the schedule at work changed again, and I was forced back to the second shift. Bitter and hating work, and not wanting to get up four hours after going to bed on a Sunday morning to attend the services, my church time diminished.

After a few years, I left the job that had provided a fancy income but had torn my inner soul with bitterness and hatred. I looked toward a bright future with the woman who is now my wife, and after a couple of moves have hopefully settled into a wonderful community.

I attend the Catholic church with my wife, and though I'm fairly anti-Catholic and likely will never join the church, I continue to seek ways to grow in my own faith. I'm thankful for the nightly prayers I share with my bride and our daughter (my step-daughter). I cherish those few minutes.
 

I grew up devoutly Jehovah's Witness. Was excommunicated for being gay when I was 18. I then started attending Christian Science services while in college but became disillusioned with it after a few years. Two years ago I joined a ONA UCC congregation and have become very active. I've taught Sunday School, worked on the Social Justice Committee, and on our LGBT Ministry. Our congregation is rapidly growing, has about 400 members, and is the oldest and largest protestant church in our town.
 

OK, I'l play ...

Raised Roman Catholic in small town Oklahoma by a Japanese Shinto-Buddhist who converted to Catholicism because of her marriage, who subsequently went on the embrace the religion in very Shinto-Buddhist ways. Didn't really get to explore Catholicism much, because there was always that expectation anyone who showed too much interest in the faith was headed for the convent. And what can I say, I liked boys a lot, so the convent was not an option for me. And said liking-of-boys-a-lot caused me to part ways with the Church at 17 upon my confirmation (I'm an adult in the Church now, ergo, I quit!). However, I did enjoy and still miss the Mass, the rituals, the relics, the incense, the saints, eating fish on Fridays during Lent because you HAD to lest you go to HELLL!!! etc.

Completely ignored the Church for the next 10 years, until I married a recovering Southern Baptist. Realized that we had COMPLETELY different religious vocabularies. Luckily, both of us were fairly estranged from our childhood faiths, so it rarely became an issue. Tried being Southern Methodist for awhile (in that every Methodist church we tried to attend really seemed like it was fronting for a Southern Baptist church). Both of us became fairly agnostic/atheistic mainly out of laziness and an enjoyment of the bookstore on Sunday mornings. I spent several years voraciously reading history, which inevitably will lead you to matters on religion if you do it right.

After 9/11, I went back to school to study history, because I was pretty sure this "They hate us for our freedoms" thing just wasn't quite the whole story. Started out in history, ended up in religious studies. Again, practically the same thing. Attended the Parliament of the World's Religions in Barcelona and the American Academy of Religions in San Antonio in 2004, discovered liberation theologies and Asian/Asian-North American theologies and finally realized that I, too, could be a Christian if you packaged it in that label. It wasn't the message so much as how it had been delivered.

When to Turkey in 2005 on a interfaith dialogue trip, met some wonderful alumni of my seminary, who dropped my name at the seminary admissions office and got them to recruit me. Realized that in order to go to the seminary I'd have to actually belong to a church. Oh no! So we looked around again for something, decided we liked reading the columns the UCC pastor wrote in the local alternative shopper, checked it out, joined last year. Mainly was going to get some Bible background and get a Master of Theological Studies so I could go off to get a PhD eventually.

Went to the Mexico-US border on an educational journey through the seminary in October, learned about the immigration issue and its complexities. Actually SAW the gospel being enacted. Came back utterly changed. Now I'm getting a Master of Divinity. Eeek! Still hoping to get that PhD, but now I want to do it with the UCC and its nifty social justice orientations.

BTW, thanks for the link to the "Not Knowing" entry. I would have to say that I agree with the sentiment, although my answer would take a different form, of course. I may blog on that later. I've always enjoyed thinking of God like Schroedinger's Cat -- until we open the box we have a 50-50 chance of knowing or not knowing if the cat ... I mean God ... is hale and hearty. I pick believer simply because it leads to more interesting questions than not believing.
 

"EL, this is the saddest thing, and I'm just shooting from the heart"

I appreciate that, ER. I've dealt with it and moved on. I do hope I am surprised in the end, but I don't expect it given what I DO know about how my Dad felt about God and Church.
 

Helllooooooooo blogdom!

It is one long-ass drive from OKC to Boulder! But OI am tickled to come the way we did. We drove, for the first time, directly into Colorado from Oklahoma, and the 20 miles between Boise Cty, in the Oklahoma Panhandle, and the Colorado border is quite nice: Totally "High Plains Drifter" country. Excellent. It was a long drive, but Boulder doesn't seem that far from Oklahoma now -- and that was the whole point of me coming the way I did.
 

Here's why I love this thread. Unless I've missed someone, no one here has actually abandoned the search for spiritual truth, whatever that might be exactly.

Changed? Evolved? Changed a mind? Zigged when reality zagged? To'd when the workld fro'd? Yes. But seekers, still, y'all are, it seems to me -- and I personally believe that is more pleasing to God that all the "Finders" who dare to speak for God. And that is just my opinion.
 

Hapa! I am pleased, a little surprised and inspired by yer story! Very cool.
 

Howdy, Norma! Howdy, David!
 

It is very interesting to see the layering of the spiritual searching that has gone on in so many lives. Nobody said I grew up in the First Church of Podunk, found that they had the whole truth and have been there happy as a bug in a rug ever since. There is probably a larger story here ER. Maybe you should write it.
 

DrLoboJo: Hmmm. I've noticed that almost all, maybe all, of the "ex-Christians" I've stumbled across online -- those who profess nothign now, not those who at leasr saelf-identify as desits or something -- were fundamentalists. I'm sure there are exes and deconverts who once were mainline or libs, but I haven't seen any. And THAT tells me something: Many fundies are wound so tight their "faith" simply can't handle any intellectual challenge.

Teditor: I can't imagine regular attending a church I was actually "anti" about, but one does what one does for the fam. :-) My main beef with Catholics -- and remember, Dr. ER is a cradle Catholic -- is closed Communin. It's just wrong. Do you partake? Dr. ER says I could, and "no one would know." Yikes. I'd know and to be dishonest in the act of the Lord's supper seems real ... cheap, or something.
 

It is very difficult attending the Catholic Church, but it is also very important I worship WITH my family. At this point of things, I doubt I could get away with partaking in the Catholic communion, given that we've been there so much, that our little girl attends school there and that I'd say 50 percent of the congregation knows us well (or is related to my wife in some sort).

Still, my wife partakes in communion, though she isn't supposed to. Our marriage has yet to be blessed and recognized by the church, so she's not supposed to be in the "feedin' line."

I love my wife, and I love my little girl. Because of my in-laws' devout ways toward Catholocism, my beautiful bride's not going to change religions just yet -- she once told me told me she thought if she left the Catholic Church, her father would disown her, to which I replied that it would never happen; now having gotten to know her dad, and love him for who he is, I'd see him definitely putting more stress on my lovely wife because of it.

Just last week, my honey and I had a little fight over Catholicism. I didn't intend for the battle, just venting to my wife about my discomfort. Once she realized that, it turned out fine, but the scrapping got a tad intense.

My decision to attend the Catholic Church comes down to this: I've said all along that I would do whatever I could for my girls, whether that's working odd jobs to make ends meet or doing the laundry or cooking dinner. If I'd do that, then I could attend the Catholic Church with my family and feed my own spirituality in other ways, with their support, of course.
 

The, yer doin' the right thing! :-)
 

E.R

"Many fundies are wound so tight their "faith" simply can't handle any intellectual challenge"

You very accuratly sum up my experience. Althought it might be different from other people's.

As kids, the fundie church I went to activly twaught us to distrust any intellectual "knowledge" and give active preferance to "spiritual knowledge". Wherever the two conflicted, it was an act of faith ti disbelieve the "wisdom of the world".

It wasn't even necessary to come up with explinations to explain away the contradictory WOTW. Even engaging it that much was a mistake. Simply bludgeon it to death with your faith.

I probably could have done it, but I figured that there was no point to it, since it became obvious to me, by the five points of Calvinism that I was one of the hopelessly damned anyway. Seemed pointless.

Why would a person keep chasing after something that they are informed from the beginning is impossible?

And yet...even though I explored more "liberal" theologies, they still seemed to demand that I believe things that it was impossible for me to believe.

Ultimatly, the big stumbling block for me was when I realized tha the whole religion is founded on a human sacrifice...something that I heard pastor's rant about in pagan religions to no end, and then one day I just felt badly for poor Jesus up there on the cross, and thought of him as an unfortunate man who met an unjust and unfortunate end because he said a lot of good stuff that was dangerous to those in power.

That is the lesson of Christ that connected with me.

And since that time, I have been horrified with the savage delight that some christians display in the suffering Christ made for them...and the seeming lack of compassion that they have for him.
 

Drlobojo wrote the following: "Nobody said I grew up in the First Church of Podunk, found that they had the whole truth and have been there happy as a bug in a rug ever since."

While I would never suggest the United Methodist Church has the whole truth, and I have been unhappy with many things that have happened in my denomination, I have been an active member of the UMC, with a brief hiatus in my early 20's, all my life. I have attended services at all sorts of denominations and faith traditions; one of the most meaningful services I ever attended was at a Greek Orthodox Church that used a Fourth Century liturgy written by St. Gregory of Nyssa. Talk about being in touch with the communion of saints. . . . I have also attended Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Episcopal, UCC, MCC, and even Assemblies of God. None have fed me spiritually the way UMC worship does. The tradition of spiritual vitality and intellectual questing - Charles Wesley's marriage of knowledge and vital piety - is something that resonates with me. Even the Roman Church's history of intellectual venturing is always tinged with the authoritarianism of the Papacy (sorry, I know that sounds like an anti-Catholic bash, but I challenge anyone to prove me wrong), as the string of silences and ex-communications among liberal Catholics and liberation theologians during the 1980's and 1990's shows.

I will also admit that emotional inertia also plays a part; it's much easier to stand pat than make a change, especially when the things that might make me turn my back on the United Methodist Church are the same in most mainstream Protestant denominations, except for the UCC, and the Unitarians. I tend to be far more liberal than the bulk of my fellow United Methodists, but that only encourages me.

Anyway, I just thought I would toss in that cent and a half.
 

GKS said: "Even the Roman Church's history of intellectual venturing is always tinged with the authoritarianism of the Papacy (sorry, I know that sounds like an anti-Catholic bash, but I challenge anyone to prove me wrong),..."

When I start in on this subject I always use the image that the "Roman Church is dependent on the non-Biblical concept of inerrant Apostolic Succession in order to maintain an orthodox and governmental control over its members."

Yep, but even you went looking around a bit. You didn't snuggle into the piling of the rug and never leave.

Gimme that ole tyme relgion, it was good enough for my daddy, it was good enough for my mommy, it was good enough for the pastor, it is good enough for me.
 

Hello ER,

I've never commented here before, though I am a regular reader. I feel the need to comment here because, well, I am not a believer. At least not in what you all believe. Yet, I think we are all after the same thing.

I was born to an Episcopalian mother and a very lapsed Catholic father. Mother decreed that her children would go to church and father reluctantly, but rightly came as well. We attended a traditional in service, yet liberal in thought Episcopal church in Massachusetts. I was bored. I attended the church youth group for a while, and that was ok, but nothing spiritual for me. Also during my teen years, I attended a friends UCC youth group. Still not much in the spiritual fold, though the people were fun and the projects worthwhile. Finally my mother told me that once I got confirmed, I no longer had to attend church. So I went through the confirmation class, which was interesting, though more on an intellectual level, and I got confirmed. And I never went back to church again. Except for weddings and funerals.

Interestingly, during this period of growing up, I also attended a Lutheran summer camp for two weeks each year from age 8 to age 15. I loved that place with all my being. It was my rest, my refuge, my rejuvenating place that helped me get through the rest of the year. It was not scripture oriented. Really not religion oriented. Just full of love, love, and a whole lot more love. We had vespers every night and services on Sunday, but it was just happy stuff and basic moral tales. But, I became very very jaded around 15, and the camp director wisely decided not to invite me back to become a CIT.

Now, at age 36, I find myself thinking about going back to church. The problem, though, is that I think the main reason I want to go is for the sense of community. Though I do not believe in God, I do have a high moral sense. I strive very much to be the best person I can be. Scripture, though, is not something I could study as a way to better myself. The general gist, however, is how I try to live my life. Yet, that is pretty broad.

I think I am not making any sense any more, but there is my history.
 

Teresa: I have seen little children cry for Jesus.

Sara: Thanks for lurking! :-) And thanks for commenting..

I'd say that this is closer to the Gospel of Jesus Christ than most of what most people ever "hear" in any church:

"Just full of love, love, and a whole lot more love."


And I'd say that this is as good a reason as any to feel drawn to a group of people who seek:

"the main reason I want to go is for the sense of community"


And, for what it's worth, if more people actually studied Scripture to better themselves, there'd be a whole helluva lot more better people. Many, if not most, people study Scripture to fill their quivers with doctrinal arrows with which to shoot those unlike themselves. I used to do so, myself, years ago. Now, I study Scripture in search for hints at the reality of the truth of Grace and Love -- and, to see how those who went before me in the Christian tradition interpreted their own encounters with the Divine, and for other reasons. But that's just my approach. :-)

Glad you decloaked. :-)
 

Hey ER, this thread reeks of spiritual journey in the way M. Scott Peck described.

Just a thought.
 

Whoa. Never heard of Peck. From Wikipedia:

Scott Peck postulates that there are four stages of human spiritual development:

Stage I is chaotic, disordered, and reckless. Very young children are in Stage I. They tend to defy and disobey, and are unwilling to accept a will greater than their own. Many criminals are people who have never grown out of Stage I.

Stage II is the stage at which a person has blind faith. Once children learn to obey their parents, they reach Stage II. Many so-called religious people are essentially Stage II people, in the sense that they have blind faith in God, and do not question His existence. With blind faith comes humility and a willingness to obey and serve. The majority of good law-abiding citizens never move out of Stage II.

Stage III is the stage of scientific skepticism and inquisitivity. A Stage III person does not accept things on faith but only accepts them if convinced logically. Many people working in scientific and technological research are in Stage III.

Stage IV is the stage where an individual starts enjoying the mystery and beauty of nature. While retaining skepticism, he starts perceiving grand patterns in nature. His religiousness and spirituality differ significantly from that of a Stage II person, in the sense that he does not accept things through blind faith but does so because of genuine belief. Stage IV people are labelled as Mystics.

Scott Peck argues that while transitions from Stage I to Stage II are sharp, transitions from Stage III to Stage IV are gradual. Nonetheless, these changes are very noticeable and mark a significant difference in the personality of the individual.


ER here: I'd say I'm mostly Stage IV, but I don't think I ever was fully at Stage III. I've never required "logic" or complete rationality to be an element of my faith, such as it is. On the other end, my faith isn't blind, but it is very, very near-sighted at times.
 

Interesting thread (just getting around to reading stuff after the holiday break.)

As for me, I was orn and raised in a conservative UCC church (yes they exist). I attended CRC churches while at Calvin, and also for a little while after I graduated. Now I'm a Presbyterian.
 

Good to see ya, Alan. What's CRC?
 

The CRC or "Christian Reformed Church in North America" is a small (300k members) very conservative, very Calvinist, very Dutch denomination. Most of its members reside in Western Michigan, though there are pockets around Pella, Iowa, and southern California. It split off of the also small, also very conservative, also very Calvinist, also very Dutch Reformed Church in America (RCA) in the early 1800's. The split was mostly over the singing of hymns and not just Psalms in church, which gives some indication of what I mean by "very conservative." :)
 

I like the idea of this thread, but am disappointed it began with the type of backbiting (of Neil) that ER has publicly stated he opposes. Glad, however, that it didn't last long.

I was born of Roman Catholic parents and attended St. Hubert's Catholic Elementary school from 3rd through 8th grade. Loved it. Religion class was my favorite, though in hindsight, with limited memory of those long ago days, I'm not sure if it was the best education of kids that age. Oh well. It wasn't awful, just more of a history class.

Jumping to my rebellious years, I bought into much of the anti-religious crapola to which many encounter, particularly those that allowed for sewing oats. Correction: I didn't "buy into" as in "believed", but adopted the nonsense for the sake of seeking out booty (unsuccessfully). Entering the workforce I partied heartily and ignored the calling until it was barely heard, but it was always there.

This is how my "conversion" experience occurred. In my early twenties, where I hung my spurs changed often. During a period where I was a pain in my widowed mother's ass while living at home, I was in reposed before dinner and experienced the beginning of an out of body episode. Without going into the details, suffice it to say that it was incredibly vivid and later, matched exactly the description of leaving the body as described in a book on the subject I later found. I would relate this tale now and then and sometimes I'd be warned against the practice due to the danger of encountering demons. (Stay with me here)

Eventually, I co-worker who was an elder in his Methodist church, warned me also and the next day brought a list of tracts on the topic put together by his wife. He also brought me a Bible. I read it cover to cover from the perspective of a Catholic and found things that I didn't expect.

From this point I studied more and listened to a lot of preachers on radio ministries and was open to anything Christian. I couldn't go back to the Catholic church, though I don't have the animosity many former Catholics have towards it. In fact, I give them props for being firm in what they believe to be true despite whiners and activists within the Catholic community. Just as I now believe there are certain requirements when calling oneself a Christian, they feel as much about what it means to be a Catholic.

Anyhow, in time, with a child and no church to call home, it happened that our neighbors had a kid the same age as ours, the wife was in training for ministry, they invited my kid to Bible class on Sunday, then my wife to go with, and then I joined as well. This was backwards as I was the one with the background and knowledge as my wife, also brought up Catholic, never was into it as was I. Nonetheless we began going to St. John's in Palatine, IL. Here's the fun part: as ER knows, I'm rather conservative both politically and religiously and this is also a UCC church. I'm an elder, president of the church council, and in the choir. The core membership is small, 40-80 regulars, depending on the time of year and how many of the elderly are infirmed (many elderly). A mix of libs and conservatives, the pastor is a lib, but we get along famously.

I oppose most of what the UCC supports, but as each congregation is autonomous and not required to adhere to every fart that eminates from the home office, I hang around due to the quality of the people. Debates arise but are not malicious. Yet while I remain, it's as if I always have one foot out the door. I typically side with ELAshley, Neil, and Mark in debates here and elsewhere in the sense that I believe there is indeed much that can be known about God, is meant to be known, and isn't all that hard or mysterious that one should have much trouble learning it.

I have to say, I've never meant the types of fundies and such that are often described here and have been in comments above. I don't say they don't exist, only that I haven't met any. Strict and pious and unshakable, but none that look to force anything. For example, no one can change my mind about the Bible sanctioning only sex within same-sex marriages, and forbidding all else, because it does. But you can believe what you like. You're just wrong. I think some of the perceptions about fundies are on those who oppose them and not truly accurate about the fundies. I'd also like the names of those Dobson books, because I don't believe what's been said. I'm not big into Dobson, but I've heard many an interview and can't see it. I suspect there's some misinterpretation happening. I'd like to investigate.

Anyway, this was a good idea, ER, and I enjoyed reading the comments despite my reservations.
 

Thanks for yer contribution, man. We all got a story, or stories, and I enjoyed reading yers.

I even get the "your wrong" part. When I think I'm right about something, those who disagree with me, by definiton, are wrong. I just no longer think any of us are very right about very much to do with God, Christ, the Bible or much else. Very many of us, however, are just close enough.)
 

But I might be wrong, and that's where Grace comes in. And on that I stake my life and my afterlife.