Wednesday, December 12, 2007
Who would Jesus shoot?
The church-related shootings in Colorado Springs and Arvada, Colo., outside Denver, have more of my attention than they might have, for obvious reasons. (I was looking at houses in Arvada not long ago.)
Something one of the church or mission leaders said on TV struck me as improbable when I first heard it. And now I think it's just flat wrong, although I'll cut anybody slack for slack thinking in the midst of tragedy.
The man said something about Jesus being glad to see the gunman go down because so many other lives were saved.
That didn't sound quite right when I heard it the other day. Last night it hit me:
Ethics, human morality, dark-glassed views of right and wrong aside, does that sound like a savior known for being willing to take chances with the many for the sake of one lost sheep?
I don't think so.
No. It doesn't make sense. But, really, nothing about the teachings and example of Jesus makes sense.
And now that the coroner says the gunman -- and not God, acting through an ex-cop -- died at his own hand, what the church leader-pastor-person said seems even more repugnant.
Whatever spirit it was guiding that ex-cop, it wasn't the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't the Holy Spirit have guided her to throw herself in front of a bullet to save potential victims, and maybe even to save the gunman? What would Jesus do?
I would probably cower, although I hope I would try to do something.
Really, I think that what the ex-cop was trying to say probably was misunderstood by reporters. Maybe not. Maybe she really did say that God helped her aim.
Maybe I misheard what I thought I heard the pastor-leader-person say about Jesus being glad to see the gunman go down.
Truth is the first casualty not only in war -- but in all violence, I think.
What do you think?
Who would Jesus shoot?
--ER
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Well, just like it can be iffy speaking for Jesus, it's pretty iffy to say who, if anyone, was guiding the ex-cop.
You're taking a general example (leaving the flock to go after the one) and applying it to an individual situation. Perhaps the ex-cop was guided to shoot the gunman, considering his state of mind, he might have taken out the cop and then just kept shooting others. In your scenario, there just might have been a bunch of dead heroes and more deaths of innocent by-standers. Do you think Jesus would have wanted that?
I think truth is the first casualty in the media--period. It's all a big game of Telephone.
You're taking a general example (leaving the flock to go after the one) and applying it to an individual situation. Perhaps the ex-cop was guided to shoot the gunman, considering his state of mind, he might have taken out the cop and then just kept shooting others. In your scenario, there just might have been a bunch of dead heroes and more deaths of innocent by-standers. Do you think Jesus would have wanted that?
I think truth is the first casualty in the media--period. It's all a big game of Telephone.
# posted by 
: 10:44 AM
: 10:44 AM
Re, "In your scenario, there just might have been a bunch of dead heroes and more deaths of innocent by-standers. Do you think Jesus would have wanted that?"
THAT's what I'm asking. Exactly. I don't think the answer is self-evident.
I'm not saying that shooting the gunman was "wrong" given the circumstances.
I *am* saying that giving God credit for it -- since debunked by the coroner, unless God had the gunman kill himself -- and saying that Jesus would be glad about the way it turned out is grotesque.
Another reason the question, "What would Jesus do?" is bogus in the first place.
What would a human being trying to live by Jesus's teachings and example do -- that's a fair question. But one with a million answers.
THAT's what I'm asking. Exactly. I don't think the answer is self-evident.
I'm not saying that shooting the gunman was "wrong" given the circumstances.
I *am* saying that giving God credit for it -- since debunked by the coroner, unless God had the gunman kill himself -- and saying that Jesus would be glad about the way it turned out is grotesque.
Another reason the question, "What would Jesus do?" is bogus in the first place.
What would a human being trying to live by Jesus's teachings and example do -- that's a fair question. But one with a million answers.
Certainly not a question with a single correct answer, E.R. Might be a case of the evil spirits being driven over the cliff to spare the afflicted or something along that line, not that I would equate the gunman with swine. It would have been ideal had a compassionate Christian been able to prevent the despair that led to the shootings in the first place.
Oh, I'm not looking for answers, per se. I think maybe the pastor-leader-person said what he said awkardly, or maybe I heard it wrong.
Jesus glad that more people weren't killed? Of course.
Jesus glad, or pleased, or any other positive emotion, that the gunman died? No way.
Jesus glad that more people weren't killed? Of course.
Jesus glad, or pleased, or any other positive emotion, that the gunman died? No way.
BTW: All communication involving more than two people is a game of Telephone -- and even some two-person communications are a game of Telephone. The media, too. But the media alone? No way. People in general.
Dr. ER says maybe the Lord directed the bullets to where the gunman's own shot kiled him, so the ex-cop wouldn't have to live knowing she killed him.
The Lord has done stranger things.
Dang it! I wish DrLobojo was here. I'm pretty sure he is among the ones still without electricity.
The Lord has done stranger things.
Dang it! I wish DrLobojo was here. I'm pretty sure he is among the ones still without electricity.
Events like this are horrible. It is without a doubt that this man dying, whether by his own or another's hand, saved lives. Yet, is that the scale we use to determine moral worth? A simple bean counting of human lives? Was his life worth less than those of his victims?
Before I was went in to seminary, I was captivated by the case of serial killer Ted Bundy. The depths of the man's psychopathology was breathtaking. It was his execution in Florida (along with John Wayne Gacey's in IL a few years later) that changed my mind about the death penalty, until I changed it back to my original opposition to it some years back. In seminary, I knew a woman who sat with Ted Bundy's mother on the night her son was executed.
It took a long time, and many proddings from and arguments with my wife, for the lesson of that single sentence that young woman told me to sink in. I do know that it was that moment, and an excellent NBC biographical documentary on Jeffrey Dahmer, that made me stop calling such individuals "monsters" and seeing them as human beings.
As Christians, I think we should be about the business of loving. Period. Sometimes, love means having to do the thing you don't want to do - kind of like the Amish forgiving the man who shot up their school, and killed those young women. As a practical matter, as an emotional matter, it might be satisfying to know that, by dying (however it happened), this man is no longer a threat to those around him. Yet, are we to take St. Paul seriously when he says "nothing can separate us from the love we have from God in Christ Jesus"?
I guess I'm stumped.
Before I was went in to seminary, I was captivated by the case of serial killer Ted Bundy. The depths of the man's psychopathology was breathtaking. It was his execution in Florida (along with John Wayne Gacey's in IL a few years later) that changed my mind about the death penalty, until I changed it back to my original opposition to it some years back. In seminary, I knew a woman who sat with Ted Bundy's mother on the night her son was executed.
It took a long time, and many proddings from and arguments with my wife, for the lesson of that single sentence that young woman told me to sink in. I do know that it was that moment, and an excellent NBC biographical documentary on Jeffrey Dahmer, that made me stop calling such individuals "monsters" and seeing them as human beings.
As Christians, I think we should be about the business of loving. Period. Sometimes, love means having to do the thing you don't want to do - kind of like the Amish forgiving the man who shot up their school, and killed those young women. As a practical matter, as an emotional matter, it might be satisfying to know that, by dying (however it happened), this man is no longer a threat to those around him. Yet, are we to take St. Paul seriously when he says "nothing can separate us from the love we have from God in Christ Jesus"?
I guess I'm stumped.
Ethically, the gunman's death was a good thing -- because ethics, I think, is a matter of bean counting.
I know that when universal health care was being talked about ih the early 1990s, I participated, as a journalist, in a national roundtable wherein we were faced with the facts of rationing health care, which would of economic necessity come into play if there were a single provider. Rationing is triage, by definition -- and triage is gambling on who is likely to live and who is likely to die, and someone has to decide that.
The ex-cop -- whether what she did killed the gunman or not -- and anyone, probably, capable and in such a situation, would make that decision: He dies, so others may live.
Ethics is not morality, though.
(Shudder).
I know that when universal health care was being talked about ih the early 1990s, I participated, as a journalist, in a national roundtable wherein we were faced with the facts of rationing health care, which would of economic necessity come into play if there were a single provider. Rationing is triage, by definition -- and triage is gambling on who is likely to live and who is likely to die, and someone has to decide that.
The ex-cop -- whether what she did killed the gunman or not -- and anyone, probably, capable and in such a situation, would make that decision: He dies, so others may live.
Ethics is not morality, though.
(Shudder).
I might be rethinking, again, my discomfort with the man saying Jesus was glad to see the gunman taken out.
I've said that if I found myself in a shooting situation like that, in war, or defending my family (or, I guess, myself), that I'd kneel for two reasons: to steady my aim and to pray for forgiveness.
I think shooting to kill to defend onself presents a great contradiction.
But shooting to kill to defend others is a real dilemma. Sometimes loving one neighbor as myself might mean taking the life of another neighbor. Maybe the ex-cop was loving her neighbors as herself, but shooting another neighbor.
My head hurts now.
As usual, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.
I've said that if I found myself in a shooting situation like that, in war, or defending my family (or, I guess, myself), that I'd kneel for two reasons: to steady my aim and to pray for forgiveness.
I think shooting to kill to defend onself presents a great contradiction.
But shooting to kill to defend others is a real dilemma. Sometimes loving one neighbor as myself might mean taking the life of another neighbor. Maybe the ex-cop was loving her neighbors as herself, but shooting another neighbor.
My head hurts now.
As usual, I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.
I'm glad this isn't Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?, because there isn't a final answer. I wrote a few reflections (extending my own remarks here) but I am no closer to figuring out if there is some clear way of thinking through this muddle.
To be honest: If I were in a position and had the tools and capacity, and the situation demanded it, I do believe that I would kill another human being to save the lives of those that person might be threatening. On the other hand, what of Trixie's question; what if we could do the same thing by sacrificing our own lives - would we do it. I could be all heroic and say, "Yes", and I would like to believe that is an honest answer, but I don't think so. We have far too many examples of people who think heroes kill, but don't die.
The knot in which I am tying myself about this is starting to hurt.
To be honest: If I were in a position and had the tools and capacity, and the situation demanded it, I do believe that I would kill another human being to save the lives of those that person might be threatening. On the other hand, what of Trixie's question; what if we could do the same thing by sacrificing our own lives - would we do it. I could be all heroic and say, "Yes", and I would like to believe that is an honest answer, but I don't think so. We have far too many examples of people who think heroes kill, but don't die.
The knot in which I am tying myself about this is starting to hurt.
As I said above, I would probably cower, although I hope I would try to do something.
(Shudder).
Must be time for a cute puppy picture. :-)
(Shudder).
Must be time for a cute puppy picture. :-)
In the situation where you're the only one at risk, you're making the decision for yourself whether you want to live or are willing to die. If you want to live, you have to be the better marksman. If you're willing to die, well, it was your decision--so be it.
In the case of others are at risk, you're allowing them the chance to live which would most likely be everyone's first choice. You don't exactly have time to take a survey and give those in danger enough time to decide if they want to live before you take action. You just act on the assumption that base instincts prevail and that they want to live.
My head is starting to hurt, too. I'll go for some Ice-T! :)
In the case of others are at risk, you're allowing them the chance to live which would most likely be everyone's first choice. You don't exactly have time to take a survey and give those in danger enough time to decide if they want to live before you take action. You just act on the assumption that base instincts prevail and that they want to live.
My head is starting to hurt, too. I'll go for some Ice-T! :)
# posted by : 9:13 PM
: 9:13 PM
Jesus is in an elevator with Dick Cheney, John Bolton, & Ann Coulter. He has a gun with 2 bullets. Who would Jesus shoot? Ann Coulter ... twice.
My power is out. I'm at a school moving some stuff around for my wife. Using their computer to check in with ole ER Et.Al.. 22 schools in OKC are without power.
Don't know about Jesus. WWJD?
Me, I would shoot him without a flicker of thought, then ask Jesus to forgive me and have great remorse.
A mature Christian would not do that.
So I guess Jesus wouldn't either.
He would be standing in front of him ready to take the bullet.
Guess I have some work to do on my Christianess.
Don't know about Jesus. WWJD?
Me, I would shoot him without a flicker of thought, then ask Jesus to forgive me and have great remorse.
A mature Christian would not do that.
So I guess Jesus wouldn't either.
He would be standing in front of him ready to take the bullet.
Guess I have some work to do on my Christianess.
Re the thought problem: Jesus is in an elevator with Dick Cheney, John Bolton, & Ann Coulter. He has a gun with 2 bullets. Who would Jesus shoot?
Christ like ethics aside:
Are two bullets harder to increase than two loaves?
Christ like ethics aside:
Are two bullets harder to increase than two loaves?
"Are two bullets harder to increase than two loaves?"
Excellent point, I think it depends on how old the bread is.
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Excellent point, I think it depends on how old the bread is.
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