Sunday, November 11, 2007
Worth noting from 'The Christian Century'
U.S. and IRAQ: SHARED HISTORY
"Revisiting Niebuhr: Reinhold Niebuhr's ideas are more important now than anytime since he died in 1971, argues Paul Elie (Atlantic, November). Ironically, 'bellicose neoconservatives, chastened "liberal hawks," and the stalwarts of the anti-war left' all claim that he would support their position on the Iraq war. Elie thinks it is Niebuhr's biblical view of history that has enduring value, a history that 'tells of a people confident of its special role yet thwarted again and again on account of its pride, and growing in wisdom through a sense of the frailty of human nature and the limits of earthly powers.' As for the war in Iraq, Elie suggests that following Niebuhr would mean recognizing both that the war in Iraq is lost, in the sense that we can't remake the fractious country in the image of America, and that a quick withdrawal from Iraq is impossible: having invaded Iraq, the U.S. now has a shared history, which brings with it a shared responsibility."
-- From "Centurymarks"
[Aside: "You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people," Colin Powell told the president in summer 2002. "You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems. You'll own it all." See Pottery Barn rule.]
ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY: COMMON GROUND
"In 'A Common Word Between Us and You,' 138 Muslim scholars, clerics and intellectuals have unanimously come together for the first time since the days of the Prophet to declare the common ground between Christianity and Islam."
Read all about it.
"... the graciousness of this open letter is such that Western Christians hardly deserve it."
Read all of The Christian Century's editorial, "Between us and them."
SCIENCE OF THE FATHERS
"I'm not sure who'll invent the cure for cancer, discover a new energy source, or genetically engineer a plant that will end starvation, but I bet it won't be an anti-Darwinian Christian."
-- Philip Gulley, in Porch Talk (HarperSanFrancisco), quoted in "Centurymarks."
(All from Nov. 13, 2007, issue of The Christian Century. Motto: "Thinking Critically, Living Faithfully.")
--ER
"Revisiting Niebuhr: Reinhold Niebuhr's ideas are more important now than anytime since he died in 1971, argues Paul Elie (Atlantic, November). Ironically, 'bellicose neoconservatives, chastened "liberal hawks," and the stalwarts of the anti-war left' all claim that he would support their position on the Iraq war. Elie thinks it is Niebuhr's biblical view of history that has enduring value, a history that 'tells of a people confident of its special role yet thwarted again and again on account of its pride, and growing in wisdom through a sense of the frailty of human nature and the limits of earthly powers.' As for the war in Iraq, Elie suggests that following Niebuhr would mean recognizing both that the war in Iraq is lost, in the sense that we can't remake the fractious country in the image of America, and that a quick withdrawal from Iraq is impossible: having invaded Iraq, the U.S. now has a shared history, which brings with it a shared responsibility."
-- From "Centurymarks"
[Aside: "You are going to be the proud owner of 25 million people," Colin Powell told the president in summer 2002. "You will own all their hopes, aspirations, and problems. You'll own it all." See Pottery Barn rule.]
ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY: COMMON GROUND
"In 'A Common Word Between Us and You,' 138 Muslim scholars, clerics and intellectuals have unanimously come together for the first time since the days of the Prophet to declare the common ground between Christianity and Islam."
Read all about it.
"... the graciousness of this open letter is such that Western Christians hardly deserve it."
Read all of The Christian Century's editorial, "Between us and them."
SCIENCE OF THE FATHERS
"I'm not sure who'll invent the cure for cancer, discover a new energy source, or genetically engineer a plant that will end starvation, but I bet it won't be an anti-Darwinian Christian."
-- Philip Gulley, in Porch Talk (HarperSanFrancisco), quoted in "Centurymarks."
(All from Nov. 13, 2007, issue of The Christian Century. Motto: "Thinking Critically, Living Faithfully.")
--ER
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Ah, ER, it's always nice to see someone stick both their hands in the hornets' nest.
I'll be checking back in later this afternoon, to see what fun transpires. Blessings to you and Mrs. Dr. ER.
I'll be checking back in later this afternoon, to see what fun transpires. Blessings to you and Mrs. Dr. ER.
Oh, I don't expect much rousing debate. Most of the rightward leaning brethren, if they come around at all these days, satisfy themselves with drive-bys.
I actually thought of yourself, Geoffrey, when I first read the Niebuhr thing. To say we've lost might infuriate the right, to say we can't just leave the mess we've made in Iraq will infuriate the anti-war left.
Myself: I'm past being sick to my stomach that the ball-less Democratic Congress didn't impeach the president; and I do understand the lack of bipartisan will to do anything drastic in terms of a withdrawal from Iraq; and I grudgingly admit that to do what we've done in Iraq, and leave it incomplete (whatever "it" is exactly), would be even more foolish than the invasion and occupation in the place.
Our leaders have made their bed, and we all must lie in it. Better to be actively involved in deciding what to do next, and now, than to totally cede the discussion to the neomorons who got us in the mess to begin with.
I actually thought of yourself, Geoffrey, when I first read the Niebuhr thing. To say we've lost might infuriate the right, to say we can't just leave the mess we've made in Iraq will infuriate the anti-war left.
Myself: I'm past being sick to my stomach that the ball-less Democratic Congress didn't impeach the president; and I do understand the lack of bipartisan will to do anything drastic in terms of a withdrawal from Iraq; and I grudgingly admit that to do what we've done in Iraq, and leave it incomplete (whatever "it" is exactly), would be even more foolish than the invasion and occupation in the place.
Our leaders have made their bed, and we all must lie in it. Better to be actively involved in deciding what to do next, and now, than to totally cede the discussion to the neomorons who got us in the mess to begin with.
"I'm not sure who'll invent .....but I bet it won't be an anti-Darwinian Christian."
Now I wouldn't make that bet. God's sense of humor is, well, awsome. I can see some scholarship student from India who discovers the cure while a Freshman at say Bob Jones University.
"ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY: COMMON GROUND"
Haven't you ever noticed that it is always the common ground that we fight the hardest for.
Now I wouldn't make that bet. God's sense of humor is, well, awsome. I can see some scholarship student from India who discovers the cure while a Freshman at say Bob Jones University.
"ISLAM and CHRISTIANITY: COMMON GROUND"
Haven't you ever noticed that it is always the common ground that we fight the hardest for.
Except for a covering presence, for a small diplomatic corps, a military presence in Iraq has been beyond our reach for years. "Withdrawal" is meaningless term if it means all our troops, and all American presence disappears.
On the other hand, the recognition that we've "lost" does not mean that "victory" would ever have been clear-cut. To be honest, the only victory I could see was the overthrow of the Hussein regime. Since then, it's been nothing but wrestling with snakes.
I was thinking less about that than the statement from Muslim scholars about commonality with Christianity. Since so many on the right have an emotional as well as political investment in degrading Islam, I would have thought that would bring the howls of disbelief and outrage.
Call me crazy, but I do believe that you used the wrong bait for a good old fashioned rhetorical donnybrook today.
On the other hand, the recognition that we've "lost" does not mean that "victory" would ever have been clear-cut. To be honest, the only victory I could see was the overthrow of the Hussein regime. Since then, it's been nothing but wrestling with snakes.
I was thinking less about that than the statement from Muslim scholars about commonality with Christianity. Since so many on the right have an emotional as well as political investment in degrading Islam, I would have thought that would bring the howls of disbelief and outrage.
Call me crazy, but I do believe that you used the wrong bait for a good old fashioned rhetorical donnybrook today.
Drlobojo, that would be funny, except those folks not only don't accept evolution - it's chemistry, geology, as well as most of the fundamental principles of biology they reject. I sometimes think there are folks who advocate for the "humours" principle of human biology and medicine out there, if for no other reason than to be perfectly clear where they stand.
On the other hand, should someone schooled in anti-Darwinian anti-biology actually achieve that kind of scientific breakthrough, it would pretty much destroy five hundred years of western science in a stroke. God may have a sense of humor, but I do not think God is Mel Brooks.
On the other hand, should someone schooled in anti-Darwinian anti-biology actually achieve that kind of scientific breakthrough, it would pretty much destroy five hundred years of western science in a stroke. God may have a sense of humor, but I do not think God is Mel Brooks.
GKS said :"I do not think God is Mel Brooks."
Of course not, He is the fat black woman on Six Feet Under.
Of course not, He is the fat black woman on Six Feet Under.
Re, fighting over common ground.
I reckon is depends on which direction potential enemies are facing when they approach it. If you're fighting for turf, there IS no common ground. Because every inch before you that si not in your sole possession is in the hand of the enemy. And if the other side thinks the same thing -- well, then you have a knock-down-drag-out fight for every last inch. (Reminds me of the great WWI headline from The Onion: "600,000 die in 6-inch gain at front (or something like). 'This patch of mud safe for democracy,' general declares."
BUT, if what has happened is two forces, or peoples, or religions find themselves backed up against one another as they fight enemies unique to one another, and perhaps extremists within, then the "common ground" is the ground from which both can join foces to resist being overcome.
I'd say that both Islam and Christianity, in the broadest since, are in fights for their lives. Moderates within each who find themselves backed up against the other should find solace, and strength, in the common ground between them.
I reckon is depends on which direction potential enemies are facing when they approach it. If you're fighting for turf, there IS no common ground. Because every inch before you that si not in your sole possession is in the hand of the enemy. And if the other side thinks the same thing -- well, then you have a knock-down-drag-out fight for every last inch. (Reminds me of the great WWI headline from The Onion: "600,000 die in 6-inch gain at front (or something like). 'This patch of mud safe for democracy,' general declares."
BUT, if what has happened is two forces, or peoples, or religions find themselves backed up against one another as they fight enemies unique to one another, and perhaps extremists within, then the "common ground" is the ground from which both can join foces to resist being overcome.
I'd say that both Islam and Christianity, in the broadest since, are in fights for their lives. Moderates within each who find themselves backed up against the other should find solace, and strength, in the common ground between them.
Well, I showed up at just the right time.
Regarding the 138 clerics. They'd do better finding common ground amongst themselves. You'd be hardpressed to find many Christians looking to force conversion on Muslims as you can the opposite. Not too many head-choppers from Christianity, either. Most Christians I know have no problem living with those of other faiths. Certainly we'd love to see them come to Christ, but it's up to them. The Muslim clerics are doing what our own lefties often do: getting in the face of those who pose no threat and acting all courageous and/or noble-like.
As to "anti-Darwinians", it's great fun to accuse fundies of having no regard for science and progress (not the laughable liberal progressive type of progress) but it is hardly truthful. Doubting a theory proves nothing beyond the doubt itself. It's funny that science used to be a means of explaining God's Creation and now is a means of denying Him. But advances such as cancer cures and such are every bit as meaningful and a reason for giving thanks as anything else for the fundamentalist. Geoff likes to think that we are without discernment, but the fact is that Geoff is all too eager to swallow whole each and every utterance from science at face value. It makes him more sophisticated.
Regarding the 138 clerics. They'd do better finding common ground amongst themselves. You'd be hardpressed to find many Christians looking to force conversion on Muslims as you can the opposite. Not too many head-choppers from Christianity, either. Most Christians I know have no problem living with those of other faiths. Certainly we'd love to see them come to Christ, but it's up to them. The Muslim clerics are doing what our own lefties often do: getting in the face of those who pose no threat and acting all courageous and/or noble-like.
As to "anti-Darwinians", it's great fun to accuse fundies of having no regard for science and progress (not the laughable liberal progressive type of progress) but it is hardly truthful. Doubting a theory proves nothing beyond the doubt itself. It's funny that science used to be a means of explaining God's Creation and now is a means of denying Him. But advances such as cancer cures and such are every bit as meaningful and a reason for giving thanks as anything else for the fundamentalist. Geoff likes to think that we are without discernment, but the fact is that Geoff is all too eager to swallow whole each and every utterance from science at face value. It makes him more sophisticated.
BTW, the ball-less Democrats (an apt term if ever there was one) won't seek impeachment for there are no grounds.
MA. Howdy.
No offense, but you are no fundamentalist. Conservative to a fault maybe (redundancy! LOL), traditionalist in matters of faith, yes -- but not a fundamentalist.
No offense, but you are no fundamentalist. Conservative to a fault maybe (redundancy! LOL), traditionalist in matters of faith, yes -- but not a fundamentalist.
That may be so, labels bein' what they are. How would you describe a fundie, that is, without the hyperbole and sarcasm?
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