Friday, November 23, 2007
'Just as I am,' not 'Just as I want to be'
Boy, this is a mess. I think it's a natural result of the whole idea that churches can help "change" people who have gender issues -- and this poor guy-gal has more than his-her share!
--ER
By The Associated Press
DELRAY BEACH, Fla. - High on prescription drugs and four days without sleep, Michael Berke raced his Harley to the megachurch where he’d found a home.
He barged into the church office, wearing a mesh shirt printed with profanity. In his hands he held a picture of a curvy woman with long, red hair and pouty lips.
"This is who I used to be," he said.
"And this" — he gestured to his flat chest, bald head and red goatee — "is who I’ve become."
He was born a man. After a lifetime as a social misfit, he had transformed himself into Michelle, a saucy redhead. Then, three months ago, he had become Michael again — with the financial aid and spiritual encouragement of Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale.
Now, he wanted to be Michelle again, and he blamed Calvary for making him the man he had become. ...
Read all about it.
Prayers aloft for all concerned!
--ER
By The Associated Press
DELRAY BEACH, Fla. - High on prescription drugs and four days without sleep, Michael Berke raced his Harley to the megachurch where he’d found a home.
He barged into the church office, wearing a mesh shirt printed with profanity. In his hands he held a picture of a curvy woman with long, red hair and pouty lips.
"This is who I used to be," he said.
"And this" — he gestured to his flat chest, bald head and red goatee — "is who I’ve become."
He was born a man. After a lifetime as a social misfit, he had transformed himself into Michelle, a saucy redhead. Then, three months ago, he had become Michael again — with the financial aid and spiritual encouragement of Calvary Chapel of Fort Lauderdale.
Now, he wanted to be Michelle again, and he blamed Calvary for making him the man he had become. ...
Read all about it.
Prayers aloft for all concerned!
Comments:
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Although there is most probably more to the story than is in the article, it would seem that the Church and its leadership should have had some legal counsel involved somewhere. I'm sure after this article appeared that several less than reputable and some even very reputable lawyers has contacted Michael Michelle about his/her case. As for the Mega-Church this is a mega-mistake, not to mention the doctor who did plastic surgery supposedly without proper couseling and delay of time.
As the old saying goes, "The road to hell is paved...."
It would be interesting to follow this, if that is possible, to see what comes next.
As the old saying goes, "The road to hell is paved...."
It would be interesting to follow this, if that is possible, to see what comes next.
The only thing that changed was the removal of the breast implants. The one most at fault here would be the surgeon who did that plastic surgery without the requisite presurgical counseling.
That one incident, in and of itself, would not constitute reversal of a gender reassignment. There would be absolutely nothing to stop this person from continuing to live as a female if that is how she wishes to identify her gender. There was no sexual reassignment surgery other than the implants.
This is a person in dire need of legitimate counseling on gender identification, which is something he/she has obviously been avoiding with great mastery. More than likely there is much more than gender identification involved.
There's a DAMNED good reason why transsexuals have to spend a year living in the gender they select before sexual reassignment surgery is done. Just as in this case, obviously, there are a LOT of psychological issues that have to be identified and dealt with before the transformation is done. By the time someone legitimately reaches that stage, it's not done in a rush or with any sense of urgency. For those truly living as the other gender, it's simply the last step in finishing the process.
That one incident, in and of itself, would not constitute reversal of a gender reassignment. There would be absolutely nothing to stop this person from continuing to live as a female if that is how she wishes to identify her gender. There was no sexual reassignment surgery other than the implants.
This is a person in dire need of legitimate counseling on gender identification, which is something he/she has obviously been avoiding with great mastery. More than likely there is much more than gender identification involved.
There's a DAMNED good reason why transsexuals have to spend a year living in the gender they select before sexual reassignment surgery is done. Just as in this case, obviously, there are a LOT of psychological issues that have to be identified and dealt with before the transformation is done. By the time someone legitimately reaches that stage, it's not done in a rush or with any sense of urgency. For those truly living as the other gender, it's simply the last step in finishing the process.
Why would any church become involved in this??? Is there a sin involved? Is there even a good-bad thing going on?
Is the church trying to make up for past sins of condemnation of transexuals and the gender-bent by not only welcoming them into the church community but trying to "help" in an area where the church has no expertise (therefore no business, in my opinion)?
Or, does the church not see any sin or good-bad issue at all? In which case: Again, why would the church become involved in the first place?
I just don't get it. No doubt, this story barely scratches the surface of what all is going on here -- but it seems to me like somebody is being played. And it might very well be the church.
Is the church trying to make up for past sins of condemnation of transexuals and the gender-bent by not only welcoming them into the church community but trying to "help" in an area where the church has no expertise (therefore no business, in my opinion)?
Or, does the church not see any sin or good-bad issue at all? In which case: Again, why would the church become involved in the first place?
I just don't get it. No doubt, this story barely scratches the surface of what all is going on here -- but it seems to me like somebody is being played. And it might very well be the church.
ER, I do like your last comment, concerning whether the church is being "played". I also think your first question is most apropos. What is the church doing involved in this? Now, perhaps the Michael/Michelle had been involved with his/her pastor in counseling up to this point; the story really isn't really very clear on any of this.
It seems to me the surgeon who did the surgery is liable, at the very least. I did not say in the wrong, I only say liable, i.e., able to be sued. Again, there just isn't enough information here to be clear.
This is a tragedy, and it seems to me the no one will come out of this looking good, or having done well. Sometimes, individuals get ground up in the process of dealing with large institutions. I know that sounds horrible, but it is true. Sometimes an individual instance of a person living so far outside the way most others live just cannot be accommodated by the routines institutions create in order to function. This is not to absolve either the church or the doctor from responsibility. Rather, it is just an observation, and I pass no judgments at all (mostly because there are scant few facts to go on, other than a man having been caught between his desires, his sense of identity, and various larger forces that just don't seem to have acted in his best interest).
I do think a prayer or two for all the Michael/Michelle's of this world is in order.
It seems to me the surgeon who did the surgery is liable, at the very least. I did not say in the wrong, I only say liable, i.e., able to be sued. Again, there just isn't enough information here to be clear.
This is a tragedy, and it seems to me the no one will come out of this looking good, or having done well. Sometimes, individuals get ground up in the process of dealing with large institutions. I know that sounds horrible, but it is true. Sometimes an individual instance of a person living so far outside the way most others live just cannot be accommodated by the routines institutions create in order to function. This is not to absolve either the church or the doctor from responsibility. Rather, it is just an observation, and I pass no judgments at all (mostly because there are scant few facts to go on, other than a man having been caught between his desires, his sense of identity, and various larger forces that just don't seem to have acted in his best interest).
I do think a prayer or two for all the Michael/Michelle's of this world is in order.
I do pray he finds peace. Make no mistake, "he" is what, as well as who, he is. He could have used such prayers way back when, it seems to me. I don't think these issues are handled well by either religious OR psychiatric institutions these days. I don't think anyone's ever really gotten a handle on the truth behind these situations. I can't imagine the pain of living like this. It's very sad. Again, I pray he finds peace.
MA said: "Make no mistake, "he" is what, as well as who, he is."
Sorry it just doesn't work that way. Transexuality is a complicated biological and biochemical conumdrum. Making it a black and white issue is exactly why this church should not have been involved. The large range of sexual dimorphisms and psycological identities are not a life style choices they are how people are born. If you have an childrens doctor in your congregation ask about the variety and frequency of this type of thing.
Sorry it just doesn't work that way. Transexuality is a complicated biological and biochemical conumdrum. Making it a black and white issue is exactly why this church should not have been involved. The large range of sexual dimorphisms and psycological identities are not a life style choices they are how people are born. If you have an childrens doctor in your congregation ask about the variety and frequency of this type of thing.
Absolutely, Drlobojo. I think people could understand it better if they thought of sexuality and gender identification separately, and as sliding scales rather than "either"-"or". Not everyone pegs out as the Marlboro Man or Marilyn Monroe -- there's a whole range from one extreme to the other on the masculine/feminine scale. And sometimes it is very odd the things we choose to identify an individual at any point along that scale.
Until my wife (generically) told me about some of the patients she has seen that have professionally left her challenged, and personally left her speechless, I had no idea of the true biological abnormalities that occur.
It definitely throws a great big wrench in any black-n-white arguments of morality and issues of choice.
It definitely throws a great big wrench in any black-n-white arguments of morality and issues of choice.
He wasn't happy as a man, or a woman, either. The story is tragic so far, but I think Michael/Michelle needs some serious drug abd psychological counseling before deciding how he really wants to spend the rest of his life.
As far as the church goes, I don't think they'd be liable for his gender. As someone already said, the only surgery was implant removal, and that's far from gender reassignment. The plastic sugeon may be liable for going too fast, but all he did was remove implants.
As far as the church goes, I don't think they'd be liable for his gender. As someone already said, the only surgery was implant removal, and that's far from gender reassignment. The plastic sugeon may be liable for going too fast, but all he did was remove implants.
Yes, 'Just as I am,' not 'Just as I want to be'.
But the idea is God takes us just as we are, and then molds us into what He wants us to be. The transformations rarely come before conversion.
One can desire change, and work very hard to achieve it, but if one doesn't allow God to change our hearts, it is for naught.
Obviously this man has relied on Man rather than God, to change perversiin into perfectness. He needs to be saved, cause he obviously isn't yet.
He may think he is, but a head knowledge of Christ is worlds away from a heart knowledge.
But the idea is God takes us just as we are, and then molds us into what He wants us to be. The transformations rarely come before conversion.
One can desire change, and work very hard to achieve it, but if one doesn't allow God to change our hearts, it is for naught.
Obviously this man has relied on Man rather than God, to change perversiin into perfectness. He needs to be saved, cause he obviously isn't yet.
He may think he is, but a head knowledge of Christ is worlds away from a heart knowledge.
Mark: "He needs to be saved, cause he obviously isn't yet."
Mark that is an amazing statement.
How do you know? I would be interested in understanding your thinking on this.
Mark that is an amazing statement.
How do you know? I would be interested in understanding your thinking on this.
That is an amazing statement - I wonder how many times in my walk with God someone could have presumed that I wasn't saved because of my struggles...
Let's thank God that we humans are not the ones handing out grace and salvation.
Let's thank God that we humans are not the ones handing out grace and salvation.
# posted by 
: 3:06 PM
: 3:06 PM
It's true, the current school of thougth suggests that "gender identification" is this complex issue. I suggest that gender ID is a symptom that hasn't been dealt with properly by the arena that has conveniently removed it from the list of mental illnesses. No. I'm no pro in the field. But it really doesn't take one to see that what has been done hasn't lessened the suffering by people like Michael/(no "Michelle"). "Complex" seems to me to be an out for not having clue one about how to deal with these issues psychologically. But none of this matters. My point was that his problems weren't properly addressed before his first "change". If they had, he might not needed to have gone through what he has. He obviously wants a normal hetero relationship. I think his first mistake was to feel his comfort with femininity was something for which he should feel ashamed or embarrassed. Yeah, the dress up part is wrong, but that seems to be a natural progression if the basic psychological aspects aren't addressed.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
"mental illnesses"?
Oh, how about the guys born with dicks but no male chromosomes and vise versa? Or say the people born with both vaginal structure and dicks? Or those born with, well something but what is it? And of course those born with nothing at all. Then there are the pediatricians that play God and say well let cut this off and make this one a girl, or sew this up and make this one a boy long before the individual begins to feel like what they should be.
As for the "metal" part, what shall you do when you give a definative test of gender reaction and the brain scans show that the person's brain is regestering as the sex not compatible with the body? So forth and so on.
Mental illness? Something to be cured?
As we said up front we really don't know what his/her story is.
Oh, how about the guys born with dicks but no male chromosomes and vise versa? Or say the people born with both vaginal structure and dicks? Or those born with, well something but what is it? And of course those born with nothing at all. Then there are the pediatricians that play God and say well let cut this off and make this one a girl, or sew this up and make this one a boy long before the individual begins to feel like what they should be.
As for the "metal" part, what shall you do when you give a definative test of gender reaction and the brain scans show that the person's brain is regestering as the sex not compatible with the body? So forth and so on.
Mental illness? Something to be cured?
As we said up front we really don't know what his/her story is.
MA - "I suggest that gender ID is a symptom that hasn't been dealt with properly by the arena that has conveniently removed it from the list of mental illnesses."
Is this a sentence? Gender ID is a mental illness? How does an arena act, to remove something? Just asking . . .
MA - "No. I'm no pro in the field. But it really doesn't take one to see that what has been done hasn't lessened the suffering by people like Michael/(no "Michelle")."
As to the first sentence - that is quite obvious. As to the second - the suffering here was caused by alack of attentiveness, it seems, to the safeguards in gender reidentification. Transexuals tend to be far happier and at peace once reassignment has been complete; this is a case where an individual was trampled all over, or so it seems, by too many people who, like you Marshall, had it all figured out beforehand, rather than treated Michael/Michelle like a suffering human being.
MA - ""Complex" seems to me to be an out for not having clue one about how to deal with these issues psychologically. But none of this matters."
No, they do know how to deal with it psychologically. That's why they know the issue is "complex".
MA - "He obviously wants a normal hetero relationship."
This means . . . what exactly? Transexualism isn't about orientation. It is about gender identity, a complex of genetic, cultural, physiological, and individual psychological attributes. As drlobojo notes in the previous comment - so many problems result from arbitrary, physiological reductionism as well as a failure to treat cultural gender differentiation as a serious concern, that we end up with poor, confused people like Michael/Michelle. It isn't about being gay or straight. It is about who this individual understands him/herself to be.
Is this a sentence? Gender ID is a mental illness? How does an arena act, to remove something? Just asking . . .
MA - "No. I'm no pro in the field. But it really doesn't take one to see that what has been done hasn't lessened the suffering by people like Michael/(no "Michelle")."
As to the first sentence - that is quite obvious. As to the second - the suffering here was caused by alack of attentiveness, it seems, to the safeguards in gender reidentification. Transexuals tend to be far happier and at peace once reassignment has been complete; this is a case where an individual was trampled all over, or so it seems, by too many people who, like you Marshall, had it all figured out beforehand, rather than treated Michael/Michelle like a suffering human being.
MA - ""Complex" seems to me to be an out for not having clue one about how to deal with these issues psychologically. But none of this matters."
No, they do know how to deal with it psychologically. That's why they know the issue is "complex".
MA - "He obviously wants a normal hetero relationship."
This means . . . what exactly? Transexualism isn't about orientation. It is about gender identity, a complex of genetic, cultural, physiological, and individual psychological attributes. As drlobojo notes in the previous comment - so many problems result from arbitrary, physiological reductionism as well as a failure to treat cultural gender differentiation as a serious concern, that we end up with poor, confused people like Michael/Michelle. It isn't about being gay or straight. It is about who this individual understands him/herself to be.
Re, "He needs to be saved, cause he obviously isn't yet."
(Shaking head)
Sorry, my friends, but that is *not* an "amazing" statement. It is, in three words, just plain stupid.
Mark, what cereal box did you get your spiritual decoder ring in? I want one!
(Shaking head)
Sorry, my friends, but that is *not* an "amazing" statement. It is, in three words, just plain stupid.
Mark, what cereal box did you get your spiritual decoder ring in? I want one!
Salvation for all came on the cross, Mark. It's all already been said and done. Our job is to realize it and accept it. And I do thank God that THAT is not something others get a vote on. You do not know anyone's spiritual state.
"You do not know anyone's spiritual state."
Not entirely true. Yes, we none of us know for certain the state of anyone's soul other than our own in terms of 'Salvation.' And there are plenty of people who think they're saved, but really aren't. But 'spiritual state' in terms of in or out of God's will, all we need do is observe their lifestyle.
Not entirely true. Yes, we none of us know for certain the state of anyone's soul other than our own in terms of 'Salvation.' And there are plenty of people who think they're saved, but really aren't. But 'spiritual state' in terms of in or out of God's will, all we need do is observe their lifestyle.
No. "You do not know anyone's spiritual state." Entirely true.
If you think you can judge that, then you are blinded by hubris, and your peculiar insistence that your interpretation of the words in the Bible is the only correct one. You are wrong, and you should repent for thinking you are right. Absolutely NOT. How you, or anyone else, even dare is truly amazing. Lifestyle? Pthh! What is that to faith in the God of the Universe? NOTHING. Get over yourself. Get into Jesus.
If you think you can judge that, then you are blinded by hubris, and your peculiar insistence that your interpretation of the words in the Bible is the only correct one. You are wrong, and you should repent for thinking you are right. Absolutely NOT. How you, or anyone else, even dare is truly amazing. Lifestyle? Pthh! What is that to faith in the God of the Universe? NOTHING. Get over yourself. Get into Jesus.
Sigh. Sorry. I really am trying to just say, "I disagree" rather than getting personal. But, I'm pretty sure that you've suggested, in the past, that not only am I wrong but that I am leading others astray. And that it precisely what I think about your way, EL. It's Your Way. Not The Way. And I think you are leading people astray whenever you trot out your list of doctrines that must be believed. No. That's for memberhip in the Scofield Lions Club or something. But it really has little to do with the historic faith of our Jesus-following mothers and fathers. It's mostly just cultural trappings and attempts to cover up doubt with confident-sounding assertions of a particular brand of religion.
ELAshley, if I were to observe lifestyle, I would be setting myself up as a judge of another person's relationship with Jesus. That's not only wrong, but man, what kind of puffed-up ego would it take to think you could actually determine such a thing??? Stick a pin in it!
1) ER, stop beating yourself up for getting angry. You said what needed to be said. There's nothing wrong with your answer - I especially like the whole "Pthh!" thing.
2) Trixie - if he stuck a pin in, it would make a big, gooey mess everywhere. And remember, Trixie, he believes, exactly as ER said, that his interpretation is the only TRUE interpretation. That is the source of his ego - the knowledge of TRUTH imparted to him by reading the Bible.
Scofield Lions Club?
2) Trixie - if he stuck a pin in, it would make a big, gooey mess everywhere. And remember, Trixie, he believes, exactly as ER said, that his interpretation is the only TRUE interpretation. That is the source of his ego - the knowledge of TRUTH imparted to him by reading the Bible.
Scofield Lions Club?
A reference to the Scofield Reference Bible, which informs dispensationalist fundamentalism. See C.I. Scofield.
I wonder, for those who see in Michelle's story evidence of "sin," what particular "sin" they're seeing?
Where in the Bible does it deal with gender issues or condemn wanting to be the other gender? Which biblical "sin" are folk like Michelle committing?
And I also wonder how folk with no psychological training think they're better qualified to determine what is and isn't a mental illness? Shall we place folk like Marshall Art in charge of making that call, or groups of professionals who are familiar with the issues?
Those are some of the things I wonder about.
Where in the Bible does it deal with gender issues or condemn wanting to be the other gender? Which biblical "sin" are folk like Michelle committing?
And I also wonder how folk with no psychological training think they're better qualified to determine what is and isn't a mental illness? Shall we place folk like Marshall Art in charge of making that call, or groups of professionals who are familiar with the issues?
Those are some of the things I wonder about.
Now Dan my boy, do you really think you have to be "qualified" to be in control of stuff in this or any other country, state, or city? What a novel Idea.
M&M's sin was not being "normal" by biblical standards as interpreted by the local status quo vadis.
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M&M's sin was not being "normal" by biblical standards as interpreted by the local status quo vadis.
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