Sunday, October 07, 2007
A modern interpretation of the Cross
I think Jesus so radically challenged first-century Palestine's world view that the people he encountered were compelled to one extreme or the other: Follow him or want to kill him.
And I think that because they were Jews, the only way they could follow him, and so radically change their lives, was to stick the experience of their encounter with Jesus onto their existing world view. So, voila: He's the Messiah.
Which is a great vehicle for communicating the story, if you're living in first-century Palestine: the Ultimate Paschal Lamb. But, not being a Jew, that doesn't do it for me -- although I have no problem with it, as an important metaphor and part of my Christian heritage.
But here's another way to tell the story:
February 2003. Jesus of, say, Omaha, is preaching peace in the face of the principalities and powers of his day, condemning the Rome of his day, Pax Americana, on the eve of its invasion and occupation of Iraq.
"Satan" enters the Judas of his day, in the form of a clandestine government arm using a piece of data-mining software that illegally monitors his phone calls. Jesus of Omaha is arrested as a threat to national security, but there's no press, and no public record.
His followers, fearful for their own freedom, scatter. The few others who notice he's gone don't care -- he *was* a long-hair and an unAmerican trouble-maker, after all.
He's shipped to Iraq. He's turned loose on a "field of battle." He's captured and sent to Abu Ghraib, where "the U.S. doesn't torture people."
President George W. Pilate washes his hands of his torture and death, like he's washed his hands of the very real and actual sins against God and crimes against humanity his administration has been responsible for.
Jesus's followers experience his death, and his resurrection -- although there are doubters as to the actuality and meaning of the resurrection from the very beginning.
Nonetheless, the power of God is unleashed in their midst by their devotion to Jesus of Omaha, his teachings, his example, his very SELF, and his followers, in turn, turn the world upside down!
That's a way of telling the Gospel story that makes more sense that one involving a lamb without blemish. ... And in 2,000 years, Christians will still be talking about "data-mining software" as if it had any real meaning to them, and they'd be arguing over whether Abu Ghraib was a real place or a metaphor for Jesus of Omaha's willingness to suffer and die for humanity!
I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks!
(Originally posted in part in a thread at Dan's place, inspired partly by the sermon today at church.
--ER
And I think that because they were Jews, the only way they could follow him, and so radically change their lives, was to stick the experience of their encounter with Jesus onto their existing world view. So, voila: He's the Messiah.
Which is a great vehicle for communicating the story, if you're living in first-century Palestine: the Ultimate Paschal Lamb. But, not being a Jew, that doesn't do it for me -- although I have no problem with it, as an important metaphor and part of my Christian heritage.
But here's another way to tell the story:
February 2003. Jesus of, say, Omaha, is preaching peace in the face of the principalities and powers of his day, condemning the Rome of his day, Pax Americana, on the eve of its invasion and occupation of Iraq.
"Satan" enters the Judas of his day, in the form of a clandestine government arm using a piece of data-mining software that illegally monitors his phone calls. Jesus of Omaha is arrested as a threat to national security, but there's no press, and no public record.
His followers, fearful for their own freedom, scatter. The few others who notice he's gone don't care -- he *was* a long-hair and an unAmerican trouble-maker, after all.
He's shipped to Iraq. He's turned loose on a "field of battle." He's captured and sent to Abu Ghraib, where "the U.S. doesn't torture people."
President George W. Pilate washes his hands of his torture and death, like he's washed his hands of the very real and actual sins against God and crimes against humanity his administration has been responsible for.
Jesus's followers experience his death, and his resurrection -- although there are doubters as to the actuality and meaning of the resurrection from the very beginning.
Nonetheless, the power of God is unleashed in their midst by their devotion to Jesus of Omaha, his teachings, his example, his very SELF, and his followers, in turn, turn the world upside down!
That's a way of telling the Gospel story that makes more sense that one involving a lamb without blemish. ... And in 2,000 years, Christians will still be talking about "data-mining software" as if it had any real meaning to them, and they'd be arguing over whether Abu Ghraib was a real place or a metaphor for Jesus of Omaha's willingness to suffer and die for humanity!
I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks!
(Originally posted in part in a thread at Dan's place, inspired partly by the sermon today at church.
--ER
Comments:
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EL, we agree. Even the smartest people in the world can be stupid!
From a first-time anonymous.
From a first-time anonymous.
# posted by 
: 5:31 PM
: 5:31 PM
Got your point. None too shabby.
Your right about the rigorist not even knowing what the blood of the lamb or the Messiah means or rather ment in the year 0000.
If they did they wouldn't be using them today.
Your right about the rigorist not even knowing what the blood of the lamb or the Messiah means or rather ment in the year 0000.
If they did they wouldn't be using them today.
Drlobo, you back in these parts or freaking out some local small-town library's Internet filter somewheres?
Oh, geez, I did not attribute the ideas behind this thoroughly enough! The stuff about the jews explaining their encounter with Jesus through the lends of their own experience as Jews is general enough to require only the general attribution: some branches of way theologically liberal Christianity.
The mentions of data-mining and Abu Ghraib came from very similar, but not exact narrative that was part of the sermon of Dr. Robin Meyers at Mayflower Congregational-UCC Church in Oklahoma City, this morning.
The rest of it is my own "sick" thinking -- it's called THINKING, y'all! I do reserve the right to revise and extend!
The mentions of data-mining and Abu Ghraib came from very similar, but not exact narrative that was part of the sermon of Dr. Robin Meyers at Mayflower Congregational-UCC Church in Oklahoma City, this morning.
The rest of it is my own "sick" thinking -- it's called THINKING, y'all! I do reserve the right to revise and extend!
I'm at a Wi-Fi location in West Yellowstone, Montana. 32 degrees 6 inches of snow. Will go into Yellowstone Park tomarrow to seek bison, elk, bears and other critters worthy of being photographed.
Messiah : The Anointed
Washed in the blood of the lamb: Sacrifice to Mater Magna
Messiah : The Anointed
Washed in the blood of the lamb: Sacrifice to Mater Magna
When George Bush gets to heaven he'll be told his biggest sin was making a few million christian people turn against Jesus and be doomed to Hell because he was one.
I hope the democrats win so you may have a chance of turning your life around.
I hope the democrats win so you may have a chance of turning your life around.
# posted by : 12:56 PM
: 12:56 PM
Anon, show me, if you think I have, where I've turned against Jesus. Better yet, show me where the president has demonstrated any semblance of Christianity -- besides occasionally flapping his lips about it.
As for my life -- it's around!
As for my life -- it's around!
BTW, I'm thinking about closing the door to Anons. How hard is it to get a blogger screen name, and how sleezy and low is it to hide behind "Anonymous," where one does not have to even pretend to be consistent?
That whole "turn against Jesus" thing steams.
Anon's Jesus must either be a comic-book superhero, or a plastic dashboard Jesus! Jesus, the man from Nazareth, is being ignored almost everywhere, Jesus the rabbi is bound and gaged and tied to a chair in the back room of the GOP and the modern church-industrial-media complex.
Even Jesus the Light of the World -- call him Son of God if you olike -- has been dethroned by American-pseudo-Christian egos run amok.
Anon's Jesus must either be a comic-book superhero, or a plastic dashboard Jesus! Jesus, the man from Nazareth, is being ignored almost everywhere, Jesus the rabbi is bound and gaged and tied to a chair in the back room of the GOP and the modern church-industrial-media complex.
Even Jesus the Light of the World -- call him Son of God if you olike -- has been dethroned by American-pseudo-Christian egos run amok.
Correction Anon.... Christians, assuming they are really Christians, can't be turned away from Jesus, nor can they end up in Hell. Read the book again. If you need help, I'll gladly point out the salient scriptures for you.
ER-- I appreciate your recognition of the need to... maybe... revise and/or extend
ER-- I appreciate your recognition of the need to... maybe... revise and/or extend
Well, I meant the first part. But Jesus as "ultimate Paschal lamb" means something only to those for whom a paschal lamb means anything.
The rest stands -- as an allegory, a way to see His Sacrifice if played out amid current events.
The rest stands -- as an allegory, a way to see His Sacrifice if played out amid current events.
It is not an allegory. His death on the cross was a literal fulfillment of the Passover feast. Jesus also, likewise fulfilled the Feasts of Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost. And in due course, and like manner, he will fulfill-- LITERALLY --the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Hashanah), the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), and the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot).
Your 'Spiritual Mobius' has left you-- dare I say it? --sorely lacking in Biblical understanding.
Your 'Spiritual Mobius' has left you-- dare I say it? --sorely lacking in Biblical understanding.
It may mean nothing to you, but I understand the Paschal Lamb, as you call it, as well as its importance to the Christian faith.
What? Do you think the Passover has no significance to the Christian faith? Or First Fruits? Or Pentecost?
What? Do you think the Passover has no significance to the Christian faith? Or First Fruits? Or Pentecost?
Significance, yes. Is it critical to "salvation" -- that is, one's relationship with God (as enlivened)through Christ? I'm not so sure.
You've studied the Bible. I have, too. You take it at face value, as "God's Word." I see Jesus himself, as we are given mere glimpses of Him, through the Bible -- and through our experience ("our" as the Church in general, and "our" collectively as individual believers) -- as the "Word of God."
Call me a "God follower," as were the first Gentile converts to Jesus. Note that the first Gentile converts to Jesus WERE converts to Jesus. Tell me why total embracement of the pre-Jesus theology is necessary to present converts to Jesus as the conduit to God.
You can't, probably, unless you tell me I have to 1., accept the Bible, as a whole, as "God's whole word," and 2., accept the Bible as you do.
Geez, all that dogma must be choking. It's the opposite of freedom, dogma is.
You've studied the Bible. I have, too. You take it at face value, as "God's Word." I see Jesus himself, as we are given mere glimpses of Him, through the Bible -- and through our experience ("our" as the Church in general, and "our" collectively as individual believers) -- as the "Word of God."
Call me a "God follower," as were the first Gentile converts to Jesus. Note that the first Gentile converts to Jesus WERE converts to Jesus. Tell me why total embracement of the pre-Jesus theology is necessary to present converts to Jesus as the conduit to God.
You can't, probably, unless you tell me I have to 1., accept the Bible, as a whole, as "God's whole word," and 2., accept the Bible as you do.
Geez, all that dogma must be choking. It's the opposite of freedom, dogma is.
BTW, what in the world do you mean "Paschal lamb, as you call it"? That's like saying "the Cross, as you call it"?
LOL. Did C.I. Scofield not use the term?
LOL. Did C.I. Scofield not use the term?
Man! It all has significance to me, because I'm steeped in it.
Like baptism, NONE of it is "required" to accept God's Grace and Jesus as the personification of reconciliation with God! Ask the thief next to Jesus on his own cross! You think he was a scholar gone bad?
Dude, you are defending a CLUB. I'm talkming about Jesus.
Like baptism, NONE of it is "required" to accept God's Grace and Jesus as the personification of reconciliation with God! Ask the thief next to Jesus on his own cross! You think he was a scholar gone bad?
Dude, you are defending a CLUB. I'm talkming about Jesus.
Re, Anon's comment above: "When George Bush gets to heaven he'll be told his biggest sin was making a few million christian people turn against Jesus and be doomed to Hell because he was one."
You may be closer to the truth than you meant to be.
But I'd edit it, thusly:
"When George Bush gets to heaven he'll be told his biggest sin was making a few million christian people turn against Jesus and be doomed to Hell because (HE SAID) he was one."
You may be closer to the truth than you meant to be.
But I'd edit it, thusly:
"When George Bush gets to heaven he'll be told his biggest sin was making a few million christian people turn against Jesus and be doomed to Hell because (HE SAID) he was one."
EL, OI guess you might say the same thing to me, but you remind me of the pastor who said of some members of his flock, that they got the Gospek, but missed it by about 18 inches!
Get it out of your head, and into your heart -- that's the only way it'll spread to your hands and your feet!
(Apologies and willingness to reconcile still extended to Crystal from our recent row. I do love you, girl. We's juss way differnt nowadays, that's all. And, of course, I can be a real ass.)
Get it out of your head, and into your heart -- that's the only way it'll spread to your hands and your feet!
(Apologies and willingness to reconcile still extended to Crystal from our recent row. I do love you, girl. We's juss way differnt nowadays, that's all. And, of course, I can be a real ass.)
"Is it critical to "salvation" -- that is, one's relationship with God (as enlivened)through Christ?"
I don't argue that it is. The 'Gospel' is succinctly described in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...."
...nothing more, nothing less. The "Dogma" of Feasts and such is merely icing on the cake, so to speak. I'd liken them to the deeper knowledge-- not crucial for salvation, but valuable nonetheless. All that is necessary for Salvation is contained within the above verse.
Regarding the repentant thief, do you realize that he is the only example given in scripture of a "Deathbed Conversion"... And no he didn't need to know that Jesus was the fulfillment of the passover to be saved, as evidenced by Christ's acceptance of him. And you can bet your last dollar those thieves understood the Passover.
And again, anyone who believes a Christian can lose his/her salvation is not 'rightly dividing' the scriptures.
Just answer me one question. Jesus and the Father being one is essense, thought, and spirit, is there any request Jesus might make of the Father, that the Father would not grant? The answer to that is "No." Go then to John 17, the Lord's OTHER prayer... Verse 11 and 20 specifically, but the entire chapter is relevant:
11- "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
20- "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word..."
And, interestingly, Jesus did NOT pray for the world (those who would not believe)... only for His disciples and those who would believe through their report...
John 17:9-10 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them"
Wrap your noodle around THAT one. Jesus prayed only for the ones His Father has given Him (that includes even you and me). And please note that according to Jesus' word, we are God's-- His property. And no one can take us out of His hand. Not even us.... not even George W. Bush. If you're genuinely and soundly saved... You're secure.
I don't argue that it is. The 'Gospel' is succinctly described in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...."
...nothing more, nothing less. The "Dogma" of Feasts and such is merely icing on the cake, so to speak. I'd liken them to the deeper knowledge-- not crucial for salvation, but valuable nonetheless. All that is necessary for Salvation is contained within the above verse.
Regarding the repentant thief, do you realize that he is the only example given in scripture of a "Deathbed Conversion"... And no he didn't need to know that Jesus was the fulfillment of the passover to be saved, as evidenced by Christ's acceptance of him. And you can bet your last dollar those thieves understood the Passover.
And again, anyone who believes a Christian can lose his/her salvation is not 'rightly dividing' the scriptures.
Just answer me one question. Jesus and the Father being one is essense, thought, and spirit, is there any request Jesus might make of the Father, that the Father would not grant? The answer to that is "No." Go then to John 17, the Lord's OTHER prayer... Verse 11 and 20 specifically, but the entire chapter is relevant:
11- "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
20- "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word..."
And, interestingly, Jesus did NOT pray for the world (those who would not believe)... only for His disciples and those who would believe through their report...
John 17:9-10 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them"
Wrap your noodle around THAT one. Jesus prayed only for the ones His Father has given Him (that includes even you and me). And please note that according to Jesus' word, we are God's-- His property. And no one can take us out of His hand. Not even us.... not even George W. Bush. If you're genuinely and soundly saved... You're secure.
Re, "Jesus and the Father being one is essense, thought, and spirit ..."
That, itself, if an interepration, and one of a particularly high Christology.
I'd say that as the weakest of the four Gospels historically, but as the one with the highest Christology, John reflects one of the most mature refections of the early -- but not earliest --interpretations of who Jesus is, of those who saw Him as a particular kind of spiritual Messiah, and as the ultimate Paschal (sorry: Passover) lamb. It's beautiful. And it's one way to meditate on the mystery. But to believe that Jesus spoke those words, or even anything close, as if someone was following yhiom around taking notes, when no one was, actually contradicts other images of Jesus in Scripture, specifically ones in which he distances himself from God the Father. ("Why callest thou me good?" Etc.)
Not as cut-as-dried as you want it to be, I don't think. My own Christology is higher than most liberal Christians, I think, but not as high as that depicted in John, specifically *because* there are other images of Jesus in Scrupture that emphasize his humanity.
That, itself, if an interepration, and one of a particularly high Christology.
I'd say that as the weakest of the four Gospels historically, but as the one with the highest Christology, John reflects one of the most mature refections of the early -- but not earliest --interpretations of who Jesus is, of those who saw Him as a particular kind of spiritual Messiah, and as the ultimate Paschal (sorry: Passover) lamb. It's beautiful. And it's one way to meditate on the mystery. But to believe that Jesus spoke those words, or even anything close, as if someone was following yhiom around taking notes, when no one was, actually contradicts other images of Jesus in Scripture, specifically ones in which he distances himself from God the Father. ("Why callest thou me good?" Etc.)
Not as cut-as-dried as you want it to be, I don't think. My own Christology is higher than most liberal Christians, I think, but not as high as that depicted in John, specifically *because* there are other images of Jesus in Scrupture that emphasize his humanity.
The Pascal Lamb sacrifice was smeared over the door. You don't bathe in its blood. "washed in the blood of the lamb" was transfered from pagan worship to Christian worship by the Roman Church to make it more compatible to their pagan population. It is another 2nd or 3rd century orthodox con job.
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