Sunday, October 14, 2007
Can I get a witness?
Bloggy bud Pecheur, an Alabaman Baptist on some sort of long-term mission-related educational sojourn in France, has a good, honest post on the Presence of God wherein he asks:
"Do you have a story about the presence of God in your life?"
Read Pecheur's post at his blog, Crushed Leviathan.
I love ya, Pecheur.
My response:
Hey, Pech!
I have almost tangibly felt the presence of God a few times:
When I was a young teen and was struggling with alcohol. I felt, once, while drunk, in the floor, that God was standing near me, shaking his head, wishing I would turn from something that was harmful, for me at least. I did not. But now I faintly feel God nearby whenever I drink. Which is often.
I felt Jesus riding with me when I was on my way east on I-40 knowing I was going to see my mama for the last time. As real, minus actually seeing Him, as if he were sitting there in my truck with me. He was singing along with me and Keith Green songs.
Once, at a meeting of the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International, a local meeting in Fort Smith, Ark., when the speaker bounced down into the audience and grabbed my hand and said, "Are you saved, Brother?" And I hesitated for just an instant, because the difference in our understanding of that was so large, that I let myself be compelled to be led to the front to have hands laid on and to be prayed to receive the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues: The Lord said to me, as clearly as if He whispered it into my ear: "Relax. If you resist, these brethren of yours will throw you to the floor and pray ON you!" And I felt God smile. And I smiled, and relaxed, and allowed myself, despite my ego, to be laid on the floor and have brethren lay hands on my head, and my chest, and my calves and feet, and pray for me to receive the Holy Ghost! I humored them to keep peace! And I believe that's what God had me to do.
I never felt God's presence, almost tangibly, more regularly, than when I was living "in sin" with a recovering crack addict and "whore" (such an ugly word!) who I had fallen in love with, in the early 1990s in Texas! DAILY surrender and HOURLY consciousnesss of God's presence, as she struggled with her addictions, and I struggled with my love for her, with her, and with the fact that, from the very beginning of my relationship with her, that I KNEW it was a God thing.
I felt Jesus standing next to me, with his arm around my shoulder the first time I saw the United Church of Christ "Bouncer" TV ad, on my home computer, and I repented of my homophobia and my cultural redneck hubris concerning people of a different sexual orientation than my own.
I felt God take my heart and break it when I saw the images on my TV from the aftermath of Katrina,l and I repented of my indifference about the poor and destitute, and starting giving, approaching tithing even, for the first time since I was a teenager.
Those are just the times that come immediately to mind. Thanks for asking! I think I just testified to myself, if no one else. And I needed to hear the witness! :-)
HOW 'BOUT YOU?
The UCC "Bouncer" ad:
--ER
"Do you have a story about the presence of God in your life?"
Read Pecheur's post at his blog, Crushed Leviathan.
I love ya, Pecheur.
My response:
Hey, Pech!
I have almost tangibly felt the presence of God a few times:
When I was a young teen and was struggling with alcohol. I felt, once, while drunk, in the floor, that God was standing near me, shaking his head, wishing I would turn from something that was harmful, for me at least. I did not. But now I faintly feel God nearby whenever I drink. Which is often.
I felt Jesus riding with me when I was on my way east on I-40 knowing I was going to see my mama for the last time. As real, minus actually seeing Him, as if he were sitting there in my truck with me. He was singing along with me and Keith Green songs.
Once, at a meeting of the Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International, a local meeting in Fort Smith, Ark., when the speaker bounced down into the audience and grabbed my hand and said, "Are you saved, Brother?" And I hesitated for just an instant, because the difference in our understanding of that was so large, that I let myself be compelled to be led to the front to have hands laid on and to be prayed to receive the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues: The Lord said to me, as clearly as if He whispered it into my ear: "Relax. If you resist, these brethren of yours will throw you to the floor and pray ON you!" And I felt God smile. And I smiled, and relaxed, and allowed myself, despite my ego, to be laid on the floor and have brethren lay hands on my head, and my chest, and my calves and feet, and pray for me to receive the Holy Ghost! I humored them to keep peace! And I believe that's what God had me to do.
I never felt God's presence, almost tangibly, more regularly, than when I was living "in sin" with a recovering crack addict and "whore" (such an ugly word!) who I had fallen in love with, in the early 1990s in Texas! DAILY surrender and HOURLY consciousnesss of God's presence, as she struggled with her addictions, and I struggled with my love for her, with her, and with the fact that, from the very beginning of my relationship with her, that I KNEW it was a God thing.
I felt Jesus standing next to me, with his arm around my shoulder the first time I saw the United Church of Christ "Bouncer" TV ad, on my home computer, and I repented of my homophobia and my cultural redneck hubris concerning people of a different sexual orientation than my own.
I felt God take my heart and break it when I saw the images on my TV from the aftermath of Katrina,l and I repented of my indifference about the poor and destitute, and starting giving, approaching tithing even, for the first time since I was a teenager.
Those are just the times that come immediately to mind. Thanks for asking! I think I just testified to myself, if no one else. And I needed to hear the witness! :-)
HOW 'BOUT YOU?
The UCC "Bouncer" ad:
--ER
Comments:
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"Agent detection", as in feeling the presence of an X. An evolutionary trait for survival within our species. How do we know that's not what we are experiencing in our "religious" moments we "feel" as God? Or is that the way God let's us know he is there? If so, then the pentecostals may be on to something. Sort of a group God grope.
Not something I would swear on my testicles about.
Not something I would swear on my testicles about.
How do we know that "eternity" doesn't exist, en toto, in the very last twinkling of an eye darkened by bodily death?
I saw Men in Black II for the first time the other night. Anyone who's seen it: the scene in the locker was worth a graduate seminar in theology-philosophy: "All hail K," indeed!
I saw Men in Black II for the first time the other night. Anyone who's seen it: the scene in the locker was worth a graduate seminar in theology-philosophy: "All hail K," indeed!
Oh, re: "Or is that the way God let's us know he is there? If so, then the pentecostals may be on to something."
Why wouldn't God use some evolutionary biological "thing" to let us know God was near? Makes sense to me, especially as I'm coming to see "natural" vs. "supernatural" as another faulty, false dichotomy.
And I think the Pentecostals *are* onto something -- just not exactly, probably, what they think they're onto!
They are most admirable, to me, in their openness to God's spirit. Sometimes, though, I think they so wildly throw open the doors of their hearts and minds that other critters get in. The ol' gal that tore off her clothes and ran down the aisle in the middle of the Assembly of God church back home comes to mind.
They trouble me in their lack of confidence in God to keep them; at least the ones I grew up with were always worried about "losing (their) salvation," or at least arguing with us "once-saved-always-saved" Baptist kids about it.
Which raises a question: If you are worried about losing your salvation, are you trusting God and God's Grace in the first place? The never-ending school yard quandary back in the day.
Why wouldn't God use some evolutionary biological "thing" to let us know God was near? Makes sense to me, especially as I'm coming to see "natural" vs. "supernatural" as another faulty, false dichotomy.
And I think the Pentecostals *are* onto something -- just not exactly, probably, what they think they're onto!
They are most admirable, to me, in their openness to God's spirit. Sometimes, though, I think they so wildly throw open the doors of their hearts and minds that other critters get in. The ol' gal that tore off her clothes and ran down the aisle in the middle of the Assembly of God church back home comes to mind.
They trouble me in their lack of confidence in God to keep them; at least the ones I grew up with were always worried about "losing (their) salvation," or at least arguing with us "once-saved-always-saved" Baptist kids about it.
Which raises a question: If you are worried about losing your salvation, are you trusting God and God's Grace in the first place? The never-ending school yard quandary back in the day.
Thanks for the visuals that were added to the testimony. Helps me better see stuff.
Touched deeply by your post. Thanks.
PS Maybe I should pick up MIB II.
Touched deeply by your post. Thanks.
PS Maybe I should pick up MIB II.
Re ER's:"...The ol' gal that tore off her clothes and ran down the aisle in the middle of the Assembly of God church back home..."
Dadgummit, I was raised in the wrong denomination for sure.
ER said:"Why wouldn't God use some evolutionary biological "thing" to let us know God was near? Makes sense to me, especially as I'm coming to see "natural" vs. "supernatural" as another faulty, false dichotomy."
Amen brother! There ain't no dichotomy, no borders, no over there, no pie in the sky. We are in one sea, all together.
Jesus Prays for All Believers:
John: 20: "(Re: the deciples)My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21: that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22: I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
"May be one"...."Complete Unity"
Actually this is scary stuff this is. Hard to understand in the light of the world that it exist in.
Dadgummit, I was raised in the wrong denomination for sure.
ER said:"Why wouldn't God use some evolutionary biological "thing" to let us know God was near? Makes sense to me, especially as I'm coming to see "natural" vs. "supernatural" as another faulty, false dichotomy."
Amen brother! There ain't no dichotomy, no borders, no over there, no pie in the sky. We are in one sea, all together.
Jesus Prays for All Believers:
John: 20: "(Re: the deciples)My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21: that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22: I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."
"May be one"...."Complete Unity"
Actually this is scary stuff this is. Hard to understand in the light of the world that it exist in.
Message to Remnant Seeker: I'm beginning to feel like Lincoln and the Beaver and the Diver in the Rozereum ads. We miss you.
drlobojo - I'm doing a paper on a book right now about the inadequacy of the reason-revelation dichotomy to fully explain religious epistemology. It's not a bad little read. It's Revelation in Religious Belief by George Mavrodes.
# posted by 
: 12:53 PM
: 12:53 PM
I could not help but wonder if God placed you in the life of the woman you mentioned, to be His witness to her of His love for her. You don't have to answer this question, but did you ever try to speak to her about how Jesus could forgive, heal and make a beautiful woman of grace out of her life? I am not saying this to scold you, we all miss many opportunities to give people the greatest gift of their lives.
Mom2, "recovering" means she was actively "working the steps," which you can't do without acknowledgement of a Higher Power. And I was going to Al-Anon, which is the 12-step program for friends and family of alcoholics and addicts.
Not a day went by, until she slipped, then got worse, and went back through the ringer, that we didn't talk, medidate, and daily seek God's help and guidance. Since I am a Christian, that involves Jesus, by definition.
As for who was put in whom's life, and for what: I think she was put in MY Life to give me genuine empathy for people who struggle with addictions, poverty, cheaters and dysfunctiomal families, little of which I had before.
God blessed ME with her presence in MY life. I like to think it also worked the other way around, but that, really, was and is, between her and her Higher Power.
Last I heard, and it's been more than a dozen years she was clean and sober again, holding down a jo and learning how to be a florist.
Not a day went by, until she slipped, then got worse, and went back through the ringer, that we didn't talk, medidate, and daily seek God's help and guidance. Since I am a Christian, that involves Jesus, by definition.
As for who was put in whom's life, and for what: I think she was put in MY Life to give me genuine empathy for people who struggle with addictions, poverty, cheaters and dysfunctiomal families, little of which I had before.
God blessed ME with her presence in MY life. I like to think it also worked the other way around, but that, really, was and is, between her and her Higher Power.
Last I heard, and it's been more than a dozen years she was clean and sober again, holding down a jo and learning how to be a florist.
LeeAnn: thast sounds like a great book!
Drlobojo: Remnant-seeker could very well be here, and we wouldn't necessarily know it. She likes to lurk under assumed names and anons. But, she's told me in so many words that she doesn't come around here any more. So she says. Whatever she wishes is OK by me.
Drlobojo: Remnant-seeker could very well be here, and we wouldn't necessarily know it. She likes to lurk under assumed names and anons. But, she's told me in so many words that she doesn't come around here any more. So she says. Whatever she wishes is OK by me.
ER - it's a really enjoyable read, too. If you have a really rigid mindset about what revelation consists of, it will challenge you. It's scholarly, but not cumbersome to read. And it's only 145 pages. That's a bonus when it's assigned reading. Mavrodes makes a shocking claim in the book: maybe God is not as spiritually minded as theologians. Hmmm.
# posted by : 5:35 PM
: 5:35 PM
Yes,I've seen God work the way you describe - that a relationship where other Christians would have said it could not be from Him, actually was.
And I have felt His presence so strongly that even though I couldn't see Him with my eyes, I felt that all I had to do was reach out my hand and I would be able to touch Him.
I've heard His voice, He has called me loving names,given me beautiful promises (many of which have been fulfilled) and I've received "things" from Him that only I could make sense of.
But my very favorite story of His presence is someone else's:
A girlfriend of mine in Germany told me about how her grandfather came to know Jesus personally.
It was toward the end, or just after the end of the war, and her grandfather had been taken as POW by the Russians and one day he escaped.
He was running through a forest, it was foggy and cold and he was scared to death, when all of a sudden he heard a voice loudly say "STOP" (in German of course).
He stopped , lay down and fell asleep
right away.
When he woke up in the morning, the fog had cleared, and he found himself lying at the edge of a deep canyon/ravine, that he had just missed falling into by a few yards.
He was so overwhelmed that he gave his life to God right there, and up to now all his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren have done the same.
When I think about this, I imagine the quality that was in that voice and in the Presence that accompanied it: a quality so overpowering, yet so peaceful and trust-inducing to make this desperate man stop and not run even faster, and then allow him to fall asleep.
To me that encapsulates my experiences with His Presence.
And I have felt His presence so strongly that even though I couldn't see Him with my eyes, I felt that all I had to do was reach out my hand and I would be able to touch Him.
I've heard His voice, He has called me loving names,given me beautiful promises (many of which have been fulfilled) and I've received "things" from Him that only I could make sense of.
But my very favorite story of His presence is someone else's:
A girlfriend of mine in Germany told me about how her grandfather came to know Jesus personally.
It was toward the end, or just after the end of the war, and her grandfather had been taken as POW by the Russians and one day he escaped.
He was running through a forest, it was foggy and cold and he was scared to death, when all of a sudden he heard a voice loudly say "STOP" (in German of course).
He stopped , lay down and fell asleep
right away.
When he woke up in the morning, the fog had cleared, and he found himself lying at the edge of a deep canyon/ravine, that he had just missed falling into by a few yards.
He was so overwhelmed that he gave his life to God right there, and up to now all his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren have done the same.
When I think about this, I imagine the quality that was in that voice and in the Presence that accompanied it: a quality so overpowering, yet so peaceful and trust-inducing to make this desperate man stop and not run even faster, and then allow him to fall asleep.
To me that encapsulates my experiences with His Presence.
# posted by : 6:08 PM
: 6:08 PM
Karen, that satory gave me chills.
LeeAnn, re: "maybe God is not as spiritually minded as theologians."
I like it! Jesus, according to my general recollections of Scripture, certainly was not as spiritually minded as his followers, especially Paul (not a slap; I love Paul, and all his Greekiness). Very practical, Jesus was, it seems to me -- with an underlying faith and ongoing conscious contact with the Father in Heaven. I think people totally shortchange the real lessons of his example and teachings when they ignore the potential intimacy of knowing him in his humanity, and instead only worship him, as God, when even he, in an oft-ignored passage, scolded people for calling him "good," when, as he said, there is none good except God, in heaven. (Mark is liable to bust my chops for not capitalizing those personal pronouns; it's just hard to hit the cap key in this chair).
LeeAnn, re: "maybe God is not as spiritually minded as theologians."
I like it! Jesus, according to my general recollections of Scripture, certainly was not as spiritually minded as his followers, especially Paul (not a slap; I love Paul, and all his Greekiness). Very practical, Jesus was, it seems to me -- with an underlying faith and ongoing conscious contact with the Father in Heaven. I think people totally shortchange the real lessons of his example and teachings when they ignore the potential intimacy of knowing him in his humanity, and instead only worship him, as God, when even he, in an oft-ignored passage, scolded people for calling him "good," when, as he said, there is none good except God, in heaven. (Mark is liable to bust my chops for not capitalizing those personal pronouns; it's just hard to hit the cap key in this chair).
LeeAnn, you should post your paper in a comment when you get it done, and graded. :-) I'm sure it'll be good! And then I'll make a post out of it! :-)
A couple of things in a rather scattershot manner:
First, I liked the post very much.
Second, "Very practical, Jesus was, it seems to me -- with an underlying faith and ongoing conscious contact with the Father in Heaven." What could be more spiritual?
Third, You often mention the bouncer ad as having a great impact on your walk. I saw the ad before it was first aired and had a problem with it from the start. I thought the implication that the UCC is unique in welcoming all is deceitful and slanderous toward competing denominations. It's as sleazy as a political ad in that it suggests that which isn't true about another. Yeah, I know there are some congregations that have been less than welcoming, but denominationally, I don't think so. I have NO problem with any church that welcomes any sinner. I have only a problem with them allowing the sin to fester.
Sorry to hear you suffered from homophobia.
First, I liked the post very much.
Second, "Very practical, Jesus was, it seems to me -- with an underlying faith and ongoing conscious contact with the Father in Heaven." What could be more spiritual?
Third, You often mention the bouncer ad as having a great impact on your walk. I saw the ad before it was first aired and had a problem with it from the start. I thought the implication that the UCC is unique in welcoming all is deceitful and slanderous toward competing denominations. It's as sleazy as a political ad in that it suggests that which isn't true about another. Yeah, I know there are some congregations that have been less than welcoming, but denominationally, I don't think so. I have NO problem with any church that welcomes any sinner. I have only a problem with them allowing the sin to fester.
Sorry to hear you suffered from homophobia.
Hey, MA.
Uno. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Two-o. Daily conscious contact with God as one goes about living one's life is "practical." Sitting and stewing and fretting and agonizing and praying and meditating over jots and tittles, even major doctrinal assertions, is the kind "spiritual" meant that is less than desirable.
Tres. I didn't see the Bouncer ad as an attempt to compete with other denominations. I saw it as a prophetic message to people who had been ignored, or worse, harrassed by "Christians," and to people like myself who DID come up with a cultural suspicion of peopel who were different (not just gays; dude, when I was little I was all but taught that God was white, blond-haired, blue-eyed and he voted Democrat; remember, this was the formerly Democratic "solid South" and a town of, then maybe 1,500).
So, it spoke to me. If it didn't speak to you, that's just fine. But I wouldn't condemn it just for that. ... Omn the other hjand, prophets DO stay in hot water. I'm dead serious, BTW, when I say that that spot, the open-and-affirming "movement" within (liberal) Christianity, and the UCC in general are prophetic, in the real, not the stupid Jeane Dixon, sense. I do not mean I think they are right on about everything: I mean I think they are stretching the envelope, opening the doors, and people's eyes, and hearts, in ways that are pointers for swaths of believers. And I mean that I believe God is blessing it all.
Uno. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Two-o. Daily conscious contact with God as one goes about living one's life is "practical." Sitting and stewing and fretting and agonizing and praying and meditating over jots and tittles, even major doctrinal assertions, is the kind "spiritual" meant that is less than desirable.
Tres. I didn't see the Bouncer ad as an attempt to compete with other denominations. I saw it as a prophetic message to people who had been ignored, or worse, harrassed by "Christians," and to people like myself who DID come up with a cultural suspicion of peopel who were different (not just gays; dude, when I was little I was all but taught that God was white, blond-haired, blue-eyed and he voted Democrat; remember, this was the formerly Democratic "solid South" and a town of, then maybe 1,500).
So, it spoke to me. If it didn't speak to you, that's just fine. But I wouldn't condemn it just for that. ... Omn the other hjand, prophets DO stay in hot water. I'm dead serious, BTW, when I say that that spot, the open-and-affirming "movement" within (liberal) Christianity, and the UCC in general are prophetic, in the real, not the stupid Jeane Dixon, sense. I do not mean I think they are right on about everything: I mean I think they are stretching the envelope, opening the doors, and people's eyes, and hearts, in ways that are pointers for swaths of believers. And I mean that I believe God is blessing it all.
Well I would respond by saying that Jesus' life was the manifestation of jots and tittles, how those look from Someone who has taken them to heart willingly for the glory of God. For the rest of us, it has been merely reminders, not obsessions, of the jots and tittles since so many ignore or forget them. On these here blog debates, it only SEEMS as if people are obsessed, but when it's the topic of the discussion, how else can a discussion go?
Oh the ad spoke to me, alright. It said that the UCC is more Christian than the others for not restricting people from coming to Christ, as if it happens other than here and there. AND, it says to me that becoming a Christian, at least in the UCC, doesn't require giving one's life over totally for Christ, as it ends with a nice shot of various couples, including those that would not earn God's approval.
If the ad worked to "cure" your homophobia, I guess it's great on that level. Having now gotten passed it, it should be easy to separate the sin from the sinner as folks like myself do. (That sounds arrogant-sorry.)
The ad is definitely marketing and meant to increase membership. I don't have any problem with that, as we are all trying to keep the doors open. It's just how they do it where I have a problem.
Oh the ad spoke to me, alright. It said that the UCC is more Christian than the others for not restricting people from coming to Christ, as if it happens other than here and there. AND, it says to me that becoming a Christian, at least in the UCC, doesn't require giving one's life over totally for Christ, as it ends with a nice shot of various couples, including those that would not earn God's approval.
If the ad worked to "cure" your homophobia, I guess it's great on that level. Having now gotten passed it, it should be easy to separate the sin from the sinner as folks like myself do. (That sounds arrogant-sorry.)
The ad is definitely marketing and meant to increase membership. I don't have any problem with that, as we are all trying to keep the doors open. It's just how they do it where I have a problem.
Of course, I totally disagree with this:
"AND, it says to me that becoming a Christian, at least in the UCC, doesn't require giving one's life over totally for Christ ..."
It says no such thing. Doesn't even suggest it. It says y'all come: Jesus didn't turn away people, and neither do we.
"as it ends with a nice shot of various couples, including those that would not earn God's approval."
This is where I will disagree until I am blue in the face: NONE OF US HAVE GOD'S APPROVAL OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. NO, NOT ONE. If you think you have repented enough, or whatever, to earn God's Grace, and "queers" and "fags" haven't, then, well, you miss the whole point of our need for salvation -- and I think you misunderstand "repentance" itself:
It ain't "be good."
It's "don't let your sin, which you were born with, and are cursed with, and which will kill you, as it ultimately kills all of you, keep you from coming to Me."
THAT's the point of the Gospel, and that's the point of the Bouncer ad. All other concerns are debatable doctrine. All of 'em.
I reckon you can have the last word. I know what the ad meant to me, and I'm not surprised you find it distasteful.
"AND, it says to me that becoming a Christian, at least in the UCC, doesn't require giving one's life over totally for Christ ..."
It says no such thing. Doesn't even suggest it. It says y'all come: Jesus didn't turn away people, and neither do we.
"as it ends with a nice shot of various couples, including those that would not earn God's approval."
This is where I will disagree until I am blue in the face: NONE OF US HAVE GOD'S APPROVAL OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. NO, NOT ONE. If you think you have repented enough, or whatever, to earn God's Grace, and "queers" and "fags" haven't, then, well, you miss the whole point of our need for salvation -- and I think you misunderstand "repentance" itself:
It ain't "be good."
It's "don't let your sin, which you were born with, and are cursed with, and which will kill you, as it ultimately kills all of you, keep you from coming to Me."
THAT's the point of the Gospel, and that's the point of the Bouncer ad. All other concerns are debatable doctrine. All of 'em.
I reckon you can have the last word. I know what the ad meant to me, and I'm not surprised you find it distasteful.
Oh, one more pre-last word! I don;'t it's necesariily meant to increase membership! The UCC is melting away because of its open-and-affirming ways. A narrow way, indeed.
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