Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

The only thing left for History to decide about GW is whether was he was evil or dillusional.

America will survive this, hopefully a wiser stronger nation. What we must always keep in mind is that they walk among us and remember what they are willing to do, no matter what name or party or religion they espouse.

And we must look in the mirror each day and ask ourselves are we them? Did we allow them to do this? Why?

It was not angels we were entertaining unawares.
 

dillusional / delusional , whatever
 

You can torture a lot of people in 5 years... I guess that's why the order hasn't been signed until now (that and rep popularity issues)

Those poor, poor prisoners

Who was the last big-time leader to ignore the Geneva Convention? Post-Hitler Stalin?
 

Of which poor, poor prisoners are you speaking? There seems to be this idea floating around that our military and/or intelligence personnel have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Though anyone can be wrong, is it likely that professionals are just going to waterboard just anyone? "OK Abdul, you're next" until they find something out? I don't think so. Try to resist the urge to demonize those seeking to deal with a type of enemy not dealt with before. And in the meantime, we can forget trying to get any info out of anyone since they now have no reason to fear us whatsoever.

History will neither view Bush as evil nor delusional. It might, however, feel differently regarding those who suffer from an irrational hatred of the man.

Has this country ever fought against anyone who HAS adhered to Geneva? This is not to excuse us, but at least these scumbags we now fight don't match anyone the convention was describing. And BTW, I don't think THEY'RE big on the convention, either.
 

Great questions, MA. But absolutely not germane to the point of the post, which is:

We are to love our enemies. Figuring out how to do that is the thing -- and figuring out to do that as voters and participants in this democratic republic.


And the Scripture says what it says: "Remember the prisoners, as though in prison with them" -- which means to have empathy with them, which means to wish them not mistreated, which means, in my view, that we need to hold them all accountable who mistreat them, from the commander in chief on down.
 

But is that verse dealing with prisoners in general, or the general prisoner? By that I mean that in wars past, some prisoners were simply infantry grunts, let's say, and taken in battle, but not a prisoner of high worth intel-wise. Of course, these prisoners are to be treated well. But would even Jesus expect one set of leaders to offer a fluffy pillow to the prisoner who would have some real strategically important intel, particularly if it entails the lives of allies? The greater goal can't be jeapardized for the sake of appearing nice to the rest of the world.

I believe the verse to which you refer speaks of the practice of mistreating every prisoner no matter their crime. We aren't doing that anywhere, but for those who are believed to be withholding info of extreme importance. And even then, the mistreatment is a relative thing.

I saw a video of a guy submitting himself to waterboarding. He had done it once before in military training, and was now doing it simply to show the public what all the hub-bub was about. He came out of it shaken (not stirred) but insisted that he was never in any danger of drowning. His point was not to comment on it's being a moral or immoral practice, but only to show that it's not the terror portrayed by Bush opponents.

My point has more to do with how we are perceived by our enemies, than how happy we feel about ourselves, or worse, how happy and proud we feel that others in the world think we're nice guys. It does us no good to sit here pleased with ourselves that we don't do this or don't do that. For all the potential reasons that explain why we've been attacked, why they continue to attack, and why they insist that they will continue to attack, none is more important than the fact that they don't fear us.

That sounds awful to some. Why would we want anyone to fear us? Why be a the world's bully? But that's not the type of fear to which I refer. I'm talking about, "That USA is a nice guy, but if you mess with him, he'll kick your ass!" I want them to KNOW that we'll kick ass.

All those who wish to be friendly with us know what a good friend we can be. Likewise, all who wish to do us harm should no as well how badly we can hurt them. It's like the law. One has no fear of the law who is law abiding. But those who break the law are very fearful of getting caught.

As regards the order to comply with Geneva, it was a bad move for two reasons. First, it can't guarantee anything in the future or anything done behind closed doors, so what's the point? Second, it signifies to our enemies that they have less worries when dealing nastily with the USA. Fewer penalties to suffer.

I feel the same about our penitentiaries. I don't mean we SHOULD mistreat prisoners. I mean they should never think we won't.