Monday, July 02, 2007


If the president murdered someone on the White House lawn and then pardoned himself while wearing nothing but a paper Burger King crown ...

... I might be surprised.

Nothing short of that -- not waking up in the morning to find we are at war in Iran, or that Mexico has been declared the 51st state by fiat, or that marshal law has been declared in all the blue states.

Nothing else out of this administration would surprise me.

It should go without saying that if Cheney pulled the trigger in such a circumstance, and danced naked wearing nothing but a paper Burger King crown, I would not be surprised.

"Corrupt to the core" doesn't begin to say it.

Impeach Bush. Impeach Cheney.


Right on, bro. . .

Get those bastards out of office. Now.
Impeach Cheney, leave Bush to twist in the wind for a year.
But I don't think the Democrats have the balls to do it.

I never thought that we would have a President worse than Nixon. Even Nixon did not pardon nor commute the sentences of the three of his staff convicted on obstruction of justice. Ford did not either. GW has gone farther than even Nixon did. But he has removed the possibility that Scooter could be coerced to reveal whatever it is that they don't want revealed. Getting that annal probe to check for contraband the first day of incarceration has losen many a resolve. So did George protect Scooter or himself, or Cheney by keeping him out of jail.

By the way I wonder how many people died because the White House outed a NOC? Now who pays for that?
Why don't you guys get off your "hate Bush" soapbox and open your ears and eyes. Wilson himself showed off his spy wife proudly and if you weren't blind to facts, you would know that Wilson is a liar scum. He and his wife are both chasing money and their book is proof of it.
mom2 said: "Why don't you guys get off your "hate Bush" soapbox and open your ears and eyes."

Speaking for myself:

Because he is a theif, a lier, and a fool.

Because he has stolen power, twice.

Because he and his cadre are hate mongers.

Because he is a threat to my country.

Because my eyes and ears and MIND are open and I use them.

Because I have killed for my country and I don't want that sacrifice to have been waisted.

Because anywhere and everywhere anybody can get 20% of the people to follow them to do anything and that has happened here in America and it must be challenged and stopped.

Because mean people suck and I don't like them!

Now that is not a complete list, but it gives some idea why Bush and his ilk will be on my short shit list until death do us part(and maybe longer than that).
If you are a Christian and you are wrong about Bush, or even if you are right, your attitude needs some heart searching. I see more anger than need be there. We live in a free land, where we go to the polls and vote. As for your accusations about the election, you have facts? or just a Democrat media's conclusions to rouse up anger against their foes?
Mom2, I am happy to see you delurk.

But just because the Right has made a litmus test out of unthinking loyalty to Bush, don't assume that libs-lefties have. We eat our own, too. It's just that your guy is in power now -- and he makes U.S. Grant look competent, Nixon look honest and Clinton look moral.

As for the Christian thing, I'd keep my Bible holstered around here if I were you. There are people here far better versed in Scripture and church history and tradition than you or me.

Oh, wait. ou didn't actually mean folowing Jesus and tryuing to follow his example and what we know of what he said. Upu mean "Christian," as fundamentalists usually do, as an identity badge and a party label. Never mind.

Carry on. I have yard work to do between floods.
Here's the scary part: In hindsight, who among the presidential candidates during the last presidential election could be handling the duties in the Oval Office better? I mean that seriously, because the concensus among pollsters was that Bush sucked, but that he was better than all other comers.

So let's look at it from that angle.

Bush genuinely appears to be the numbskull he's been portrayed as by comedians and liberals.

In ER's defense, at one time, he would've bashed Bush for being GOP alone. But I think actually he's got some legitimacy behind his complaints now. He's studied it.
I was disappointed he did it. Actually, sickened. There's a reason I avoid the news, and actions like this -- which underscore the core corruption that undermines our nation -- will only mire us further into politics as usual.

By the way, have you ever noticed that people who question your Christianity never do it in a quiet email? Never mention that they're lifting your name up to God? Never point out and compliment the Godly things you do? No, it's always a way to beat you up. To make Christianity into a club is a corruption of God's essential message to mankind. I wonder why the mountains don't cry out.
And since I'm in a commenting mood, I will also add that it bothers me that you're "flying" the flag upside down. I know why you are doing so and know the history behind it, but it still bothers me. Whatever our government does, that flag still means something to me. Hopelessly naive, I know, but I still feel that way.
Bush is the acme of the school yard bully. Problem is that his school yard is the world.
Sweet cheeks, I've always refrained from any ad hoc attack until someone opens up one on me. Then I play by their rules.
You want to talk about my heart and my Christianity and try to shame me. Didn't you read the part where I have killed for my country? Hell, I am a gun loving, weapon toting, Vietnam Vet, baby killing, S.O.B., and you want to shame me? Then I have a question for you. Are you willing to dedicate your two kids (an assumption fromm the name) to fighting a decades long, dead end, pre-emptive war started by a dumb ass Democratic President sometime in the future based on the "presidence" set by the current president?
Unless we pull back this power to where it belongs it will eat us up, including you and yours.
I have to practice what I "preach" and when we get soooo angry at someone, it is time for a heart check. Anger is compared to murder. I think anger also harms our health because it releases things into our system that are harmful to us personally. It is much better to take those people we dislike to the Lord in prayer, than to rant on and on about them. What is our intent?
ER. you said it. Bush has acted illegally, immorally, and dangerously. He believes himself outside the law, and that the law does not apply to him or his friends. If none of that is impeachable, then get the man a bj by an intern.
one more thing, Impeach Cheney first, then Bush, I don't want to see the puppet master actually get signing power and pardon Bush. And impeach Gonzoles as well.
Mom2: It's not anger. It's disgust. It's not hate. I mean, I "hate" this administration the same way I "hate" violent sex-obsessed, mysogynistic rap music: I think both are doing harm to the country. But if I saw George W. Bush with a flat on the side of the road, I'd stop and help him. Same with ... name a rapper.

Tech: The upside-down flag disturbs me, too; I don't display lightly. It means I think the nation is in distress and we need rescue or revolution.

God, if there is a Zephran Cochran out there, let him get his rocket up NOW, so the Vulcans can come save us from ourselves.

Teditor, I think any of the candidates would have handled the actual duties of the presidency as well as Bush (that is more than I can say about the current crop of candidates); but it's not the function of the presidency that makes me sick; it's that he has made NO effort to keep Vice President Voldemort in check; it's that he looks askance at torture, plays games with the rule of law, and led us into a war of choice, in Iraq, to the detriment of the legitimate war in Afghanistan, among other things.
Today, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said that President Bush decided to commute Scooter Libby's 30 month prison sentence for perjury and obstruction of justice because it was 'excessive.'

Yet, last year, the Bush administration filed a friend-of-the-court brief* with the Supreme Court in an attempt to uphold a lower court's ruling that a 33 month prison sentence for Victor Rita, who was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice, was 'reasonable.'

The questions we should all be asking ourselves today are:

Why is the President flip-flopping?
Why does Scooter Libby get special treatment?
George Bush's disregard for the rule of law is truly unbecoming a President. I'm calling on every American to flood the White House this week with phone calls and tell the President, "In 2000, when you ran for president, you promised to 'uphold the honor and dignity' of the office of President of the United States -- We're Still Waiting".

Call the White House: 202-456-1414

Thank you,

Joe Biden
ER, we got Republican talkers on our hands. You've got Mom2, I've got Marshall Art. The best way to deal with it? May I take a crack?

Mom2, your original post is erroneous on a number of points, all of them factual. There is no reason to even engage in dialogue at this point. Get your facts straight, then come back and complain about how badly the courts treated poor little Scooter.

Was that really Joe Biden who posted here? I clicked the name, and the link sent me right to Biden's website.

Wow, ER, you've got yourself some interesting readers . . .
yea yea you lost your vote and your pissed, get over it!
No, my vote was stolen and I'm pissed about it. If it happens again....all bets on civility and law and order are off.

Mom2 it is my responsibility as an American citizen, and may I say, my privilage to speak truth to power.

God can judge Bush's soul and his intent, all I have are his actions to judge. His actions are what we must stop.

The mantra is beginning to be; "Support Bush and Kill the Two Party System".
Mom2 said "Anger is compared to murder.."

Wrong translation and out of context.

The earliest existing (about 250 c.e.) Greek manuscripts of the sermon on the mount have the phrase, "anger without cause is....". Indeed if Jesus intended that all anger be equated with murder then he was sinning when he angerly thrashed the money lenders in the temple.
My ANGER with the actions and behavior of this current administration is with cause. To not be angry with the "money changers" in Washington could be, in fact, a sin of omission.
yada yada yada

There was no underlying crime as Pat Fitz admitted. That alone makes the jail sentence excessive. They didn't even bother to indict or try the actual leaker. That also makes the sentence excessive. Damn near everything I've seen written or heard whined about regarding Bush's disregard for the law or the Constitution has been pretty much one difference of opinion after another. All here raggin' on the man have ragged on me regarding Biblical interpretation and now allow no such differences to Bush. And I know you folks don't interpret the Constitution as I do. He hasn't stolen any election, he had grades slightly better than the opponent in the last election, he has not pardoned anyone like previous presidents. But you guys keep digging and by the time his term has elapsed, I'll bet there is still no REAL crime which you can attribute to him. Find something solid and I'll be happy to rag along with ya. Right now, there are simply policy decisions of which I disagree. But for YOU guys, it's BDS. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
There was no underlying crime as Pat Fitz admitted
No underlying crime?? I beg to differ.. there was plenty of lying going on. As evidenced by Libby. Remember that whole perjury and obstruction of justice thing? This “ no underlying crime argument” is like saying Al Capone was never convicted of murder. Therefore, his tax evasion charge should never have happened. Back in the good ol’ days, Capone went to jail for breaking the law. Libby.. errr… # 28301-016.. should do the same.

That also makes the sentence excessive
Let me get this straight.. once convicted of a crime.. the criminal is not subject to sentencing within the regulations of the law. The George Bush appointed judge handed Libby his sentence. The odd thing about this “argument” is conservatives admit that Libby did wrong when they reference the excessive sentence. After all, one has to be guilty to be sentenced.

Just a side note.. Capone pleaded guilty and was convicted on 22 counts of tax evasion. He then offered to repay back taxes and pay a fine. The judge sentenced him to 12 and a half years, of which he served 6 and a half. In other words.. Capone admitted to his crime. Libby still thinks he is innocent.

Conservatives are left chasing their wet, nappy BDS dreams. After all, what could possibly drive the nation to think Libby was actually found guilty by a jury and sentenced to prison.
Parklife, I commend you for pointing out Marshall's ongoing pursuit of rhetorical victory in the face of massive evidence. I would, however, wish that rather than engage these people, we would simply repeat that what they say is false in all its particulars, and refuse to "debate" matters of fact with them. One can agree or disagree with Bush's decision, but one cannot deny the facts in the public record. That's all.
By "no underlying crime" it is meant that though he allegedly lied during an investigation, that about which he allegedly lied didn't happen, or more to the point, no one has been indicted for the crime about which he supposedly lied. I hope that was clear enough. So basically he was convicted of lying about a crime that didn't happen. Let's give him the chair.

Between the time he was interviewed for the investigation and the time he allegedly said what he's accused of lying about, can anyone here honestly say their memory of a conversation would be spot on? He may honestly not recall clearly enough to admit to anything, which is what was called lying. I'd like to know how they can prove he really does remember.

"After all, one has to be guilty to be sentenced."

Not even close to true. One only has to be judged guilty to be sentenced. I refer you to the introduction of Lee Stroebel's "The Case For Christ" wherein he describes the conviction of a man who was innocent of the crime for which he was arrested. Happens, unfortunately, all the time. So Libby was convicted, but that doesn't guarantee his guilt.

As none of us here can honestly say we were present when the conversation of interest took place, nor when Libby "lied" about it, we can only HOPE that justice was done. Perhaps it was. But if it was, this was still a far greater waste of time and money than the Whitewater investigation and it yielded far less for the effort. Fitz knows it. That's why it's over.

And Geoff, whaddya mean, "these people"?
Marhsall, your last comment is so full of errors of fact and judgment, it would take hours to try to point them out.

Your entire comment is wrong. Period.

"These people" are people who spread the kind of errors of fact, argument, and judgment that you have demonstrated in your post. "These people" are those who ignore facts, misrepresent facts, or deny facts to further squalid, partisan ends. "These people" are people who, through their continued support of our criminal Administration, demonstrate a lack of moral judgment, as well as a certain blindness to reality, that I find honestly appalling. "These people" are people who will go to any lengths to make sure that responsibility lands anywhere but where it rests - upon the narrow shoulders and empty head of your President. "These people" are people who would rather repeat what others have said than think for themselves.

"These people" are, well, you, Marshall.
Re, "Wow, ER, you've got yourself some interesting readers . . ."

YES. I like it that way. No one has the Truth. All see through a glass darkly, on all things.

I like disagreeing with people and seeing what they think. So I try to engage them. And, prety regularly, I deliberately spur 'em on. There's no fun in agreeing all the time. :-)

Mom2 is a chicken, tho. Onvce in a great whole she pops in, leaves some generally offensive comment either directed at me, or someone else, or those damn libs -- then when it gets heated, she splits. I'd rather she stuck around.
It's more fun to just watch you libs implode. What's to debate with those who have all the answers anyway.
Besides that, I am in and out of the house and just check in on you when I have nothing better to do.
Your friend Joe Biden can be as ridiculously funny as you guys. Birds of a feather flock together.
Mom and Marshal and others that you have attracted here ER, are part of that 20% I mentioned earlier. They will think Bush was a great president no matter what happens. They will excuse their demigods no matter what they do. They can not tell the difference between a liberal and a libertarian. Notice when you score a hit they ignore it and go on to another subject. But without them we may forget that the 20% is out there. It is out there and it can make a difference. So thank you guys for you constant reminder that we need to be mindful of your existance.
You do us a service.
By the way the White House today said the commutation was a "routine" matter. They simply can't keep from lying any more.

You're filled with such knowledge and insight. *cough*

I won't list the policies with which Dubya and I disagree. Approval ratings tell you what you want to hear. There are some things Bush has done since he won legitimately in 2000 that I totally agree with and other things not so much. But if you want to put me in some little group because I insist on some kind of real proof to back up claims of criminality, shredding of the Constitution, greed, self-interest, lying about getting us into war, and all the other deranged accusations, much of which comes from opponents with more skeletons in THEIR closet, why you just go ahead. I just consider the source and say have a nice day. The whole Bush admin is evil stuff is just really boring now. And this Libby situation is just another Bush-hatin' attempt at taking the slightest little piece of crap and trying to make it a huge, heaping pile of dung. Bush haters are still trying to reverse 2000. Get the hell over it.
Marshall, it is truly astounding that a human being, an American, can sit in the Year of Our Lord 2007 and claim, among other astounding things, that Bush did not lie to prod us to war; that Scooter Libby lying to a federal grand jury, in the process impeding the investigation of the outing of a covert CIA agent whose main task was keeping tabs on Iranian weapons of mass destruction; that somehow, this is all some weird fantasy we and the other 67% or so of Americans who simply want the Bush Presidency to end have managed to concoct out of whole cloth.

Either you are not paying attention or you are deceitful. I will assume the former.

This is no longer about party or ideology or God or baseball or gay marriage or tax cuts for the rich or anything else. The commutation of I. Lewis Libby's sentence for felonious perjury and obstruction of justice is a direct attack upon the balance of powers, this time directed at the judiciary. Congress is already yellow, spineless, and gutless, the Democrats afraid for so reason or reasons that Bush or the press might say bad things about them if they do their jobs. The Republicans are so far inside the lower intestine of Karl Rove it's a wonder they can see at all. We now have definitive proof that Bush has no regard for anything other than his own power. He and his people cannot govern. They cannot conduct foreign policy. They cannot direct Administrative agencies to fulfill their legally mandated functions without interference.

Please, if you would, name just one thing - ONE THING - that the Bush Administration has done for the country as a whole. Just one. One positive thing.
Mon you crack me uo. Don't you dare EVER preach to me again. Your witness is shot -- just like mine and everyone else's. Diff is I don't act like I've got God in my pocket, and you do. What a joke.
I will add one personal caveat. Bush's first lie was to himself. He is self-deluded. Which has to be the only way he can look anybody in the eye and say he was telling the truth -- because he means the truth as he thought he knew it.

The sonofabitch had me expecting mushroom clouds on this continent at the hand of Saddam. I will never forgive him. So, Mom2, maybe I do have a little real hate in my heart. It keeps me warm.

The only good he's doen is remind a bunch of people that it really is important who we hand power to in the country. How soon we forget ...
Morshill Ars said: "Doc,You're filled with such knowledge and insight. *cough*"

Why thanks Morshill, I guess I am pretty smart for a Pig's Ass and as you say, yada, yada, yada, yada!

"One positive thing."

Here's two right off the top:

Tax cuts for every American who pays 'em. Good for the economy, which, after major hurricanes, war on two fronts, a major attack on our shores, is doing quite well, thank you very much.

And the appointments of two fine Justices to the Supreme Court. Now it is far less likely that we'll soon be treated to the type of goofy, agenda driven decisions that have given us Roe v Wade.
Yep, great actions they were. Reduced Taxes for the first time ever during a multi-billion dollar war and appointed two WASP that can't tell the difference between white and black (literally). Yes, and the economy is doing great, just like it was in the 1920's.
Tax cuts for . . . Like I said, you just haven't been paying attention. Apparently you think that only the very rich pay taxes, as they were the only ones who significantly benefited from those tax cuts. Again, this is a fact, not some liberal myth that we dreamed up to scare people. It just is.

Two deceptive Supreme Court justices who managed to lie their way past a fixed Senate Judiciary Committee. Two radical justices who are not "strict constructionists" or practitioners of judicial restraint, but activist reactionaries whose decisions have overturned precedent after precedent, most recently threatening Brown v Board of Education.

The facts just don't add up here. I'm still waiting for just one action this President has taken that has benefited all Americans.
This whole, “Libby is innocent” shtick is a bit embarrassing. You sound like a convicted felon already.

The silver lining to all this is that Bush saved Libby’s kids. I mean really, what a heart on the guy. Prison is not only hard on the felon.. its tough on the family unit. Its just nice to see Bush recognize this. The cold hard costs of lockdown go far beyond the brick and mortar of those 24 inch thick walls. Imagine the trauma of Scooter Jr. having to only see Pops on the weekend.

Btw, there are some really great essays floating around right now on our prision system.

Finally, I cant wait for the full pardon. Then Libby will be able to vote again. Hey, every vote counts!
Marshall said:

"By "no underlying crime" it is meant that though he allegedly lied during an investigation..."

So, that means since there was no underlying crime behind Clinton's perjury, that you were opposed to his impeachment?

Well, good for you for having some integrity and consistency!

Most "conservatives" think perjuring one's self about a personal matter (not related to the trial at hand) is one of the most horrendous things in the world (while lying about war crimes or treason is not so bad, as long as it's a "conservative" committing the perjury).
If I didn't realize that this is just a liberal site, I would be very afraid. Reading the comments of the last two posts is enough to scare me into never wanting to leave the house. If our country is made up of a majority of the likes of these posters (except Marshall), we are living in a dangerous land. A bunch of horribly angry, rabid, vengeful folks that sound like a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
Lighten up, you guys! Do you believe in a God that created the world and will control it until He comes again? Read His Word, a lot of this going on was prophesied. All the love that I have heard talked about, sure has not been displayed on this site. If it sounds like hate, walks like hate, it must be hate, heh?
And when one continually twists the words to be the opposite of what the original intent of the speaker (ie, "I'm opposed to Bush's policy," or "I think this war is wrong," becomes, "I HATE Bush, that #*%@#!!" or "I hope our baby-killing soldiers all die!"), then one must question

1. The sincerity
2. The logic
3. The sanity
4. The love

of those who thus twist words.

Lighten up, indeed, sister mother.
Quit using "the Word" to justify the situation we find ourselves in, Mom2.

And, look around: Does it look like God is "in control" of man? No. He's not. Even your own fundamentalist take on things admits that.

And if you think Bush is righteaous, or even what he professes to be ... just what god do you worship?

BTW, you *should* be afraid to leave the house. Your party and fundamentalist, in-your-face, end-times, Bible-worshiping, unthinking "Christianity" have made this a scary damned country.

As for this: "Read His Word, a lot of this going on was prophesied." Give me a break. That's comic-book, "Left Behind" type fiction.

Re, "All the love that I have heard talked about, sure has not been displayed on this site. If it sounds like hate, walks like hate, it must be hate, heh?"

Mom2, either you are plain garden-variety ignorant, or a liar just like the president. If love means bending over and taking it up the backside with a smile, then your're right. No love here for the president, the GOP or its warmongering dupes.

And no love here for a false faith that waves the Bible around like a sword, and uses Scripture like an IED but keeps the Prince of Peace tied to a chair in a back room, bound and gagged.
M2 said: "Do you believe in a God that created the world and will control it until He comes again?"

Yes, I believe in a God that created the world.

No, I don't believe he controls it.
That is not even biblical, nor logical.

Until he (God) comes again? You mean he left? He left us and went away? Are you a Unitarian? I thought he was still here with me. No, I don't believe he is coming again, he has never been gone. The Kingdom of God is already here. Now if you are waiting for the Government of God, you've got a long wait indeed.
Better yet... impeach ER
Can't be done. I'm unelected. I'm self-appointed. King of ER Land.

Stifle yourself, you serf.
You guys are funny. Do you all make your tinfoil hats with the same brand of tinfoil?
Myself, I use aluminum foil.
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