Monday, June 18, 2007
'War's sacred toll'
"However much religious impulses can be complicit in violence, that ineffable and precious touch is the absolute opposite of war. Human beings can never kill each other without killing God."
Amen.
Read all of "War's sacred toll," by James Carroll, in today's Boston Globe.
--ER
Amen.
Read all of "War's sacred toll," by James Carroll, in today's Boston Globe.
--ER
Comments:
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Wow! Beautiful. BTW, I, too, had once heard that Cologne Cathedral was spared out of reverence, and it is sad to hear different after all these years.
Who could forget, of course, Christian Crusaders penning the Jews of Jerusalem in the largest synagogue in the Jewish quarter of the city and setting it ablaze?
There are times that just being a human being makes me ashamed.
Who could forget, of course, Christian Crusaders penning the Jews of Jerusalem in the largest synagogue in the Jewish quarter of the city and setting it ablaze?
There are times that just being a human being makes me ashamed.
Maybe there's someone you could see about that. Me, I tend to consider that it takes all kinds to make a world, and unfortunately some of those kinds really suck. Do you count yourself amongst those who refuse to identify evil when they see it? I do not identify myself as being the same as evildoers. Thus, I feel no shame for being a human being. That one point alone just is.
I forget the dastardly deeds of the Crusaders until someone deems it necessary to bring it up again, and usually to put forth some moral equivalency between Christianity and other religions or ideologies.
Is it possible that the Cologne Cathedral was spared for both reasons? That is, maybe they preferred to spare such places and then realized that it's military value helps seal the deal. I'll go with that until proved wrong. You can believe there is no honor within anyone in the military if that's where you're leaning.
"Human beings can never kill each other without killing God."
That may be true. But I suspect God is able to distinguish between the intention behind a murderous suicide bomber and the intention behind a soldier or cop defending a civilian. It takes a human to infer there's no difference.
I forget the dastardly deeds of the Crusaders until someone deems it necessary to bring it up again, and usually to put forth some moral equivalency between Christianity and other religions or ideologies.
Is it possible that the Cologne Cathedral was spared for both reasons? That is, maybe they preferred to spare such places and then realized that it's military value helps seal the deal. I'll go with that until proved wrong. You can believe there is no honor within anyone in the military if that's where you're leaning.
"Human beings can never kill each other without killing God."
That may be true. But I suspect God is able to distinguish between the intention behind a murderous suicide bomber and the intention behind a soldier or cop defending a civilian. It takes a human to infer there's no difference.
I've always agreed that there could be a time, unlike the present, where I might feel obliged to fight for my self, or my state, or my country -- but that I would in the same breath pray "God forgive me," even as I prayed "Lord, may my aim be true."
"Human beings can never kill each other without killing God."
Human beigns can not kill each other without killing themselves.
It is interesting that we always "fight" and "die" for our country. Shit, our country doesn't need soldiers to fight and die for her. She need soldiers that "kill" for her. She needs soldiers that kill and then live with that killing, and get up the next morning and do it again, and again, and again until there is nothing left in them but do it some more. Now that is patriotism.
"But I suspect God is able to distinguish between the intention behind a murderous suicide bomber and the intention behind a soldier or cop defending a civilian."
"Murderous suicide bomber", man what balls it must take to knowingly pre-plan to kill yourself to kill others. Now that is religious devotion! Of course the murderous suicide bomber believes himself to be doing right and that he is in God's service and will. After all the Koran supposedly teaches that any innocents that are killed in battle (read suicide bombing) will forgive their killers in Paradise because God will explain it to them and they too (the innocent) become sanctified by their holy deaths of Martyrdom. Indeed God does sort it out in heaven.
To know that as you kill, you kill youself, brave men, these who die all of a sudden or incrementally.
Brave men and women, but are we wise to let them. Are we wise to teach them to do it?
New Rule:
I think we need a rule that says no soldier or sucide bomber should be younger than 55. The double nickles rule! That would slow this shit down to a tickle.
As for the "holy" sites, what is more holy than the temple of God that is a man? Indeed if there is a spark of God in all of us then when we kill anyone we kill God.
As for bricks and stones and concrete, it can be rebuilt.
Human beigns can not kill each other without killing themselves.
It is interesting that we always "fight" and "die" for our country. Shit, our country doesn't need soldiers to fight and die for her. She need soldiers that "kill" for her. She needs soldiers that kill and then live with that killing, and get up the next morning and do it again, and again, and again until there is nothing left in them but do it some more. Now that is patriotism.
"But I suspect God is able to distinguish between the intention behind a murderous suicide bomber and the intention behind a soldier or cop defending a civilian."
"Murderous suicide bomber", man what balls it must take to knowingly pre-plan to kill yourself to kill others. Now that is religious devotion! Of course the murderous suicide bomber believes himself to be doing right and that he is in God's service and will. After all the Koran supposedly teaches that any innocents that are killed in battle (read suicide bombing) will forgive their killers in Paradise because God will explain it to them and they too (the innocent) become sanctified by their holy deaths of Martyrdom. Indeed God does sort it out in heaven.
To know that as you kill, you kill youself, brave men, these who die all of a sudden or incrementally.
Brave men and women, but are we wise to let them. Are we wise to teach them to do it?
New Rule:
I think we need a rule that says no soldier or sucide bomber should be younger than 55. The double nickles rule! That would slow this shit down to a tickle.
As for the "holy" sites, what is more holy than the temple of God that is a man? Indeed if there is a spark of God in all of us then when we kill anyone we kill God.
As for bricks and stones and concrete, it can be rebuilt.
Marshall, the fundamental flaw in your comments is this - you do not identify yourself with evildoers. Hate to tell you this, pard, but you are an evildoer. So am I. Everyone who comes and comments here - except perhaps Trixie - is one, too.
Your lack of compassion, empathy, and imagination actually show you to be less than human. You would much rather see "evildoers" instead of human beings who are evil, like yourself. Me - whether it's a suicide bomber, the Virginia Tech shooter, John Wayne Gacey, or whomever, I know that what separates them each from me is so minuscule as to defy understanding. You want your ethical and moral choices to be clear, and they're not.
All I was saying was a reiteration of the doctrine of original sin. Should you care to look it up, one can find another summation of it in St. Paul's writings, to whit, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Whether that means you cheat on your spouse, you tell little white lies, you steal office supplies at work rather than sign all that annoying paperwork or you engage in genocide - it all comes out in the wash as evil, as sin, and our human ways of grading these things mean nothing to God.
Human beings suck. Powerful human beings suck absolutely.
Your lack of compassion, empathy, and imagination actually show you to be less than human. You would much rather see "evildoers" instead of human beings who are evil, like yourself. Me - whether it's a suicide bomber, the Virginia Tech shooter, John Wayne Gacey, or whomever, I know that what separates them each from me is so minuscule as to defy understanding. You want your ethical and moral choices to be clear, and they're not.
All I was saying was a reiteration of the doctrine of original sin. Should you care to look it up, one can find another summation of it in St. Paul's writings, to whit, "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Whether that means you cheat on your spouse, you tell little white lies, you steal office supplies at work rather than sign all that annoying paperwork or you engage in genocide - it all comes out in the wash as evil, as sin, and our human ways of grading these things mean nothing to God.
Human beings suck. Powerful human beings suck absolutely.
"Your lack of compassion, empathy, and imagination actually show you to be less than human."
OUCH.
Yeah, upon reflection I kind of wish I had left that part out. On the other hand, it does drive home a point - that the qualities I list are part of what makes us human beings, and the failure to engage them when considering the actions of others is a failure to live up to our full human potential.
Still, it might have been a bit much. Sorry about that.
OUCH.
Yeah, upon reflection I kind of wish I had left that part out. On the other hand, it does drive home a point - that the qualities I list are part of what makes us human beings, and the failure to engage them when considering the actions of others is a failure to live up to our full human potential.
Still, it might have been a bit much. Sorry about that.
No problem, Geoff. Offense taken.
But I believe it is you who is missing the point. In a discussion about war and violence, it is not necessary to highlight a moot issue regarding original sin. I didn't think it necessary to define for this discussion the term "evildoers" as one who blows himself up in a public place, or crashes his vehicle loaded with explosives into a cafe or place of worship, or captures an unarmed man and binds him and hacks off his head for the video camera, or attacks a school full of children, or any number of other heinous acts in the name of some wacky religious devotion. These vermin fight and die for something vile and selfish. Those who fight and die in an effort to thwart their plans and protect the civilian population are in no way on the same level as the vermin. Indeed they are a universe apart. And when those who fight the evildoers pop a cap in the asses of these "temples of God", God, who knows the heart, who is a just God, does not condemn their actions.
What really bothers me to no end, is when those who recognize the distinctions between those who bring war, and those who take up arms to end the war, refuse to acknowledge the distinctions. Why preach to THIS choir when strong defense in no way of it's own denotes agression or passion for war? It's madness. Take the peace talk to the real haters and violent of the world. Start with the gang-bangers of the inner cities. In the meantime, I'll support those who are willing to risk all for our protection.
Suicide bombers aren't ballsy. They're corrupted and brainwashed. The guy who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades--that's courage. The suicide bombers think they'll profit by their actions. Killing one's self to murder vs killing one's self to save. No balls on the former, but he IS nuts.
Look, "I've always agreed that there could be a time, unlike the present, where I might feel obliged to fight for my self, or my state, or my country -- but that I would in the same breath pray "God forgive me," even as I prayed "Lord, may my aim be true." "
That's all I'm saying.
But I believe it is you who is missing the point. In a discussion about war and violence, it is not necessary to highlight a moot issue regarding original sin. I didn't think it necessary to define for this discussion the term "evildoers" as one who blows himself up in a public place, or crashes his vehicle loaded with explosives into a cafe or place of worship, or captures an unarmed man and binds him and hacks off his head for the video camera, or attacks a school full of children, or any number of other heinous acts in the name of some wacky religious devotion. These vermin fight and die for something vile and selfish. Those who fight and die in an effort to thwart their plans and protect the civilian population are in no way on the same level as the vermin. Indeed they are a universe apart. And when those who fight the evildoers pop a cap in the asses of these "temples of God", God, who knows the heart, who is a just God, does not condemn their actions.
What really bothers me to no end, is when those who recognize the distinctions between those who bring war, and those who take up arms to end the war, refuse to acknowledge the distinctions. Why preach to THIS choir when strong defense in no way of it's own denotes agression or passion for war? It's madness. Take the peace talk to the real haters and violent of the world. Start with the gang-bangers of the inner cities. In the meantime, I'll support those who are willing to risk all for our protection.
Suicide bombers aren't ballsy. They're corrupted and brainwashed. The guy who throws himself on a grenade to save his comrades--that's courage. The suicide bombers think they'll profit by their actions. Killing one's self to murder vs killing one's self to save. No balls on the former, but he IS nuts.
Look, "I've always agreed that there could be a time, unlike the present, where I might feel obliged to fight for my self, or my state, or my country -- but that I would in the same breath pray "God forgive me," even as I prayed "Lord, may my aim be true." "
That's all I'm saying.
Marhsall, your entire comment is premised upon a distinction which does not exist. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, after all. . .
Yes, chopping off heads is despicable (why in the world should I denounce what is obvious), but I have no control over what others do. As an American, I do have control over what my government does in my name. When we torture, rape, bomb orphanages, invade countries that do not nor have ever threatened us, and reduce their social and civic infrastructure to the second lowest on the planet, I do believe I have a reason to speak up.
I fail to see the distinctions you are raising, because we are in fact just as bad as "they" are, not just in some grand philosophical sense, but in a very real, mundane, kill 'em all let God sort 'em out kind of way. That you fail to see that there is no distinction between your mythical Muslim hordes wanting to make us all Islamofascists and the urge to kill them all to defend our way of life shows that you need to think about these things a bit. I am not trying to insult you; I want you to think. That's all.
Yes, chopping off heads is despicable (why in the world should I denounce what is obvious), but I have no control over what others do. As an American, I do have control over what my government does in my name. When we torture, rape, bomb orphanages, invade countries that do not nor have ever threatened us, and reduce their social and civic infrastructure to the second lowest on the planet, I do believe I have a reason to speak up.
I fail to see the distinctions you are raising, because we are in fact just as bad as "they" are, not just in some grand philosophical sense, but in a very real, mundane, kill 'em all let God sort 'em out kind of way. That you fail to see that there is no distinction between your mythical Muslim hordes wanting to make us all Islamofascists and the urge to kill them all to defend our way of life shows that you need to think about these things a bit. I am not trying to insult you; I want you to think. That's all.
Little known fact:
Gen. George Washington allowed the beheading of a soldier for going AWOL.
Well-known fact: U.S. dragoons and cavalrymen picked up the Indian habit of scalping.
We really have little moral high ground when it comes to wartime atrocities. Our are less numerous -- we hope -- but no less atrocious.
Gen. George Washington allowed the beheading of a soldier for going AWOL.
Well-known fact: U.S. dragoons and cavalrymen picked up the Indian habit of scalping.
We really have little moral high ground when it comes to wartime atrocities. Our are less numerous -- we hope -- but no less atrocious.
Pardon me, but it's nonsense. I'm not going to lump into the equation those who have acted in a manner unbecoming and American soldier with the lot of 'em. We do not bomb orphanages as a tactic or target. We do not rape as policy. We do not partake as a general rule any of the heinous acts that you want to accuse us of, just because a few have taken it upon themselves to be assholes.
"Mythical Muslim hordes?" You've GOT to be kidding. I'm sorry, that's stupid. You are NOT paying attention to what the enemy is like.
And unfortunately, you DON'T have control over what the leader of this country does regarding making a hard decision to take it to those who've been attacking our interests and allies. All you can do is await the next election and accuse him of vile intent. And I reject wholeheartedly any accusation that we are just as bad as the bastards we are fighting. That's a despicable thing to say and an insult to the majority of upstanding citizens in uniform. Shame on you. I want YOU to think about THAT.
"Mythical Muslim hordes?" You've GOT to be kidding. I'm sorry, that's stupid. You are NOT paying attention to what the enemy is like.
And unfortunately, you DON'T have control over what the leader of this country does regarding making a hard decision to take it to those who've been attacking our interests and allies. All you can do is await the next election and accuse him of vile intent. And I reject wholeheartedly any accusation that we are just as bad as the bastards we are fighting. That's a despicable thing to say and an insult to the majority of upstanding citizens in uniform. Shame on you. I want YOU to think about THAT.
ER,
I once heard that the Indians learned scalping from the white man. I believe the scalps paid a bounty at one time. That could be legend, but that's what I heard.
I once heard that the Indians learned scalping from the white man. I believe the scalps paid a bounty at one time. That could be legend, but that's what I heard.
Hmm. Never heard that. It wouldn't surprise me.
BTW, I don't say we're "just as bad" as our enemies. I do say we're "not much better than" them when it comes to war. Because war, by definition, is immoral. No such thing as a "just" war. There *are* such things as justifiable wars, as in self defense. And Iraq ain''t one of 'em -- or , it didn't start that way. Afghanistan is. Or was. Until it was allowed to drift because of ... Iraq.
Impeach Buch. Impeach Cheney. And run Pelosi out on a rail if she doesn't start it now.
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BTW, I don't say we're "just as bad" as our enemies. I do say we're "not much better than" them when it comes to war. Because war, by definition, is immoral. No such thing as a "just" war. There *are* such things as justifiable wars, as in self defense. And Iraq ain''t one of 'em -- or , it didn't start that way. Afghanistan is. Or was. Until it was allowed to drift because of ... Iraq.
Impeach Buch. Impeach Cheney. And run Pelosi out on a rail if she doesn't start it now.
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