Friday, February 23, 2007
ER defends himself on charges of heresy regarding homosexuality and the Church
By The Erudite Redneck
I stand accused, because of my position on homosexuality and the Church, of being accepting, or blind, to sin -- I deny it. I utterly deny it.
I write the word "homosexuality" and people turn it into "homosexual acts." There is a major difference. The Bible addresses the latter, and not the former, as sure as it mentions Ezekiel's wheel yet shows no cognizance of the science of flight. (That's not the best example, but I hope you get what I mean).
To accuse a sincere believer, as I am, whether any of you believe it or not, of promoting evil in the Church, is dangerous. To make such assertions is to skirt blasphemy, if that is understood to be attributing acts of the Holy Spirit to the Devil.
For I assert that it *is* the Holy Spirit, working through my reading of the sacred texts, and my own observations and experiences, that has led me where I am regarding homosexuality.
If you see me as in error, well, then, I expect nothing less than prayer, not attacks.
The link is below. I invite all to see that whether or not we agree, I do not take this issue lightly, I do not look askance at sin.
I do believe, as surely as Luther and Zwingli did in their times and for their purposes, that there is a New Reformation under way in Christendom regarding what science, psychology and theology have to say about homosexuality and the church specifically, and what the Bible *is* exactly in general.
By my reckoning, it's the equivalent of about 1530, which means there is a long ways to go.
Here's the link.
--ER
I stand accused, because of my position on homosexuality and the Church, of being accepting, or blind, to sin -- I deny it. I utterly deny it.
I write the word "homosexuality" and people turn it into "homosexual acts." There is a major difference. The Bible addresses the latter, and not the former, as sure as it mentions Ezekiel's wheel yet shows no cognizance of the science of flight. (That's not the best example, but I hope you get what I mean).
To accuse a sincere believer, as I am, whether any of you believe it or not, of promoting evil in the Church, is dangerous. To make such assertions is to skirt blasphemy, if that is understood to be attributing acts of the Holy Spirit to the Devil.
For I assert that it *is* the Holy Spirit, working through my reading of the sacred texts, and my own observations and experiences, that has led me where I am regarding homosexuality.
If you see me as in error, well, then, I expect nothing less than prayer, not attacks.
The link is below. I invite all to see that whether or not we agree, I do not take this issue lightly, I do not look askance at sin.
I do believe, as surely as Luther and Zwingli did in their times and for their purposes, that there is a New Reformation under way in Christendom regarding what science, psychology and theology have to say about homosexuality and the church specifically, and what the Bible *is* exactly in general.
By my reckoning, it's the equivalent of about 1530, which means there is a long ways to go.
Here's the link.
--ER
Comments:
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As I was listening to the FOX network this morning I had an ephipany of sorts. You know why extreme fundamentalist refuse to recognize the basic genetics and biology behind homosexuality? It is the same reason that they refuse to understand the thinking and facts behind evolution. It is the same reason they are attacking Global Warming. It is the same reason they can not stand to listen to the science behind the ancient texts.
It is because Science is Satan.
(Substitue, Logic and Knowledge here if you want) Science itself is evil in their eyes. Is Science evil because it discounts with facts the basis of their cherished beliefs or is it evil in and of itself. Now that is the chicken and the egg question. But no matter which comes first, Science is an evil false religion.
Thus what ever position "Science" takes must also be evil.
Therefore there can be no dialog, no reasoning, no coming together. For them to embrace "Science" is like taking the devil to their bosom. The true fundamentalist can not do it.
It matters not how you defend yourself on this ER. All the Inquisitor is after is an admission of your guilt by you before your damnation.
It is because Science is Satan.
(Substitue, Logic and Knowledge here if you want) Science itself is evil in their eyes. Is Science evil because it discounts with facts the basis of their cherished beliefs or is it evil in and of itself. Now that is the chicken and the egg question. But no matter which comes first, Science is an evil false religion.
Thus what ever position "Science" takes must also be evil.
Therefore there can be no dialog, no reasoning, no coming together. For them to embrace "Science" is like taking the devil to their bosom. The true fundamentalist can not do it.
It matters not how you defend yourself on this ER. All the Inquisitor is after is an admission of your guilt by you before your damnation.
# posted by 
: 10:32 PM
: 10:32 PM
I think it goes back to the Serpent himself: "Eat of this fruit, from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and be like God."
Since all knowledge helps illumine good and evil, all knowledge, apart from "revelation," is bad because it is seen as an attempt to be Godlike.
As far as the Inquisitors: I've made my stand. Bring 'em on.
Since all knowledge helps illumine good and evil, all knowledge, apart from "revelation," is bad because it is seen as an attempt to be Godlike.
As far as the Inquisitors: I've made my stand. Bring 'em on.
WHile we are on the subject of sin, let remember that "ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God" .... and if I remember my bible school lessons correctly there is no degree of sin. SIN IS DEATH period. The only way back from that death is a spiritual resurection paid for by Jesus. You can't earn it, you can't deserve it it is called Grace for a reason. So if all of us are worthless pieces of camel crap (we are compared to Him) what gives any one human the right to judge another spiritually? Nothing, in fact (not a passage memorizer) somewhere in that Book is a verse or two on how God reserves the right of Judgment for himself. Look, I have done many many stupid things in my life (ASK ER he knows) but to assume that God will just let me slide for taking his place in the whole Judgement venue is a bit stupid even for me.
Like i said before, I am a simple creature, I could be wrong.
Holio
Like i said before, I am a simple creature, I could be wrong.
Holio
# posted by : 8:43 PM
: 8:43 PM
God set a system in place by which we are to reproduce, and to be fulfilled and whole on this earth. The Original Sin pretty well screwed that up.
Still, God's system is ideal, and serves as the "model" for the "best" way to be happy.
I am single by choice. So some have said that I broke God's command to leave mother and father and find a mate.
Not all of us are meant to reproduce, though. Look at Paul.
Long ago, I realized the commandments weren't about God taking the fun outta living. They're about making life easier on ourselves and each other.
The greatest commandment with promise is to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Yes, I believe in a God of judgment. And I believe we -- as a civilized society -- must be prepared to pass judgment on others when they break laws.
However, concerning God's laws -- particularly the ones that don't infringe on another Christian's relationship with Him -- we should stay out of the judgment business.
Being -- or living as -- a homosexual brings a heavy load to the individual and those who love the person.
I can't possibly tell a brother "not" to "be" gay. And I sure can't tell him it's okay to be gay as long as he doesn't engage in homosexual acts
I can encourage him not to live a duplicitous life and pretend to be something he's not.
If we can't be genuine within the body of Christ, what's the point of fellowship one with another?
Seems to me a Christian homosexual needs the love and support of his or her family of Believers.
Still, God's system is ideal, and serves as the "model" for the "best" way to be happy.
I am single by choice. So some have said that I broke God's command to leave mother and father and find a mate.
Not all of us are meant to reproduce, though. Look at Paul.
Long ago, I realized the commandments weren't about God taking the fun outta living. They're about making life easier on ourselves and each other.
The greatest commandment with promise is to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Yes, I believe in a God of judgment. And I believe we -- as a civilized society -- must be prepared to pass judgment on others when they break laws.
However, concerning God's laws -- particularly the ones that don't infringe on another Christian's relationship with Him -- we should stay out of the judgment business.
Being -- or living as -- a homosexual brings a heavy load to the individual and those who love the person.
I can't possibly tell a brother "not" to "be" gay. And I sure can't tell him it's okay to be gay as long as he doesn't engage in homosexual acts
I can encourage him not to live a duplicitous life and pretend to be something he's not.
If we can't be genuine within the body of Christ, what's the point of fellowship one with another?
Seems to me a Christian homosexual needs the love and support of his or her family of Believers.
Personally, the idea that "heresy" exists at all is a bit beyond me anymore. There is such a wide swath of thought and practice that fall under the rubric "Christian" that to anathematize a person for not holding to one position is intellectual dishonesty.
As to the whole gay thing - I have a memo to all those whose faces turn red at the thought of a little lavender . . . "Get over yourselves!" Gay folks have been with us in one form or another; social acceptability of same-sex attraction has waxed and waned; the place of gays and lesbians within the life of the church is a matter or historical enquiry and controversy, but should not be denied because we fear that some people might have their sensibilities knicked.
As a loyal UM, I have often said that the entire controversy within our denomination would end in one day if, at the annual meeting of clergy called Annual Conference, all the gay and lesbians, closeted and open, practicing and not, married and single, would stand and announce that (a) they are gay; and (b) dare the church to remove their orders as would be lawful under the Discipline. Some would leave the church, but certainly not even a vast plurality, and the subject would be as dead as Jacob Marley. I, for one, am tired of sex-obsessed conservatives demanding we conform to their dusty way of life. The church isn't even remotely concerned with men loving men; it is concerned with whether or not we love one another enough to forget about our own desires and work for the whole world. What is so difficult about that to understand?
As to the whole gay thing - I have a memo to all those whose faces turn red at the thought of a little lavender . . . "Get over yourselves!" Gay folks have been with us in one form or another; social acceptability of same-sex attraction has waxed and waned; the place of gays and lesbians within the life of the church is a matter or historical enquiry and controversy, but should not be denied because we fear that some people might have their sensibilities knicked.
As a loyal UM, I have often said that the entire controversy within our denomination would end in one day if, at the annual meeting of clergy called Annual Conference, all the gay and lesbians, closeted and open, practicing and not, married and single, would stand and announce that (a) they are gay; and (b) dare the church to remove their orders as would be lawful under the Discipline. Some would leave the church, but certainly not even a vast plurality, and the subject would be as dead as Jacob Marley. I, for one, am tired of sex-obsessed conservatives demanding we conform to their dusty way of life. The church isn't even remotely concerned with men loving men; it is concerned with whether or not we love one another enough to forget about our own desires and work for the whole world. What is so difficult about that to understand?
Well said, Tracy, especially *this* part, which is a brave thing for anyone to say:
"I can't possibly tell a brother 'not' to 'be' gay. And I sure can't tell him it's okay to be gay as long as he doesn't engage in homosexual acts. ... I can encourage him not to live a duplicitous life and pretend to be something he's not."
Geoffrey, I agree. The ghost of Irenaeus lives, though!
"I can't possibly tell a brother 'not' to 'be' gay. And I sure can't tell him it's okay to be gay as long as he doesn't engage in homosexual acts. ... I can encourage him not to live a duplicitous life and pretend to be something he's not."
Geoffrey, I agree. The ghost of Irenaeus lives, though!
I only got halfway through the article when I saw that the author has made the same mistake all other homosexuals make.
He confuses sex with love. re: "David's love for Jonathan was said to exceed his love for women. (2 Samuel 1:26) Ruth's relationship with Naomi is an example of a deep, bonding love, and Ruth’s words of covenant to Naomi are often used in heterosexual wedding ceremonies. (Ruth 1:16-17) The Bible clearly values love between persons of the same sex."
Sex and love are not the same thing.
If you can't define the terms accuartely, there is no point in discussing it further because you begin from a faulty premise.
He confuses sex with love. re: "David's love for Jonathan was said to exceed his love for women. (2 Samuel 1:26) Ruth's relationship with Naomi is an example of a deep, bonding love, and Ruth’s words of covenant to Naomi are often used in heterosexual wedding ceremonies. (Ruth 1:16-17) The Bible clearly values love between persons of the same sex."
Sex and love are not the same thing.
If you can't define the terms accuartely, there is no point in discussing it further because you begin from a faulty premise.
# posted by : 6:54 AM
: 6:54 AM
The author of the article is clearly a homosexual himself, so his argument is biased.
# posted by : 6:56 AM
: 6:56 AM
By the same logic then, you clearly believe yourself to be non-homosexual, a heterosexual, therefore your post about the homosexuals "mistake" is an uninformered bias as well. No?
# posted by : 9:54 AM
: 9:54 AM
Of course, Anon, I think you have it exactly backward. It's people who are all-fired against homosexuals who confuse love with sex.
Here, let me clarify some terms:
God.
Loves.
Us.
Just.
As.
We.
Are.
Here, let me clarify some terms:
God.
Loves.
Us.
Just.
As.
We.
Are.
I agree. God loves us as we are. All of us, whether we have sex with the same sex or not, He still loves us. That is not the point. God doesn't have sex with us.
# posted by : 6:31 AM
: 6:31 AM
I AM a fundamentalist, WHO...
*Recognizes basic genetics & biology, but also knows there is no conclusive evidence to support the 'Gay' gene.
*Recognizes that the FACTS surrounding evolution, as put forth by Darwin himself, are anything but
*Recognizes that the Earth has been unusually warm of late, but the earth has also been getting hot and cold for millions of years... long before man began polluting the environment.
*Recognizes 'Science' simply means 'Knowledge' and has nothing to do with 'Satan'
*CAN ALSO RECOGNIZE tortured logic when I read it, as in Rev. Michael S. Piazza's defense of Homosexual love... He conveniently ignores Jude 7... His piece is little more than a work of apology. It is neither scholarly, nor definative.
I have nothing against homosexuals personally, but I am concerned for their souls. Homosexuality is completely contrary, by nature and God's purpose for the sexes, to salvation. If you believe otherwise, that doesn't make you a hell-bound sinner... theologically impaired, yes, but not necessarily the other.
There IS a reformation taking place in the church today, but I don't see it as a good thing... I see it in terms of Jude-- Apostasy, wolves in sheeps clothing, "certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into laciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ..."
My only point here and elsewhere has been: When God seals a person, folding him into the body of Christ, old things pass away and all things become new... he becomes a NEW creature. God does not sanction homosexuality, but recognizes the power such a practice exerts over those caught in that trap. If someone engaged in homosexuality is truly saved, the Holy Spirit would be dealing harshly with him or her... to repent and find healing in Jesus Christ. My problem with homosexuality is not with the person caught in it, but with the Congregation who accepts it as the perfect will of God for that person's life... because nothing could be further from the truth.
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*Recognizes basic genetics & biology, but also knows there is no conclusive evidence to support the 'Gay' gene.
*Recognizes that the FACTS surrounding evolution, as put forth by Darwin himself, are anything but
*Recognizes that the Earth has been unusually warm of late, but the earth has also been getting hot and cold for millions of years... long before man began polluting the environment.
*Recognizes 'Science' simply means 'Knowledge' and has nothing to do with 'Satan'
*CAN ALSO RECOGNIZE tortured logic when I read it, as in Rev. Michael S. Piazza's defense of Homosexual love... He conveniently ignores Jude 7... His piece is little more than a work of apology. It is neither scholarly, nor definative.
I have nothing against homosexuals personally, but I am concerned for their souls. Homosexuality is completely contrary, by nature and God's purpose for the sexes, to salvation. If you believe otherwise, that doesn't make you a hell-bound sinner... theologically impaired, yes, but not necessarily the other.
There IS a reformation taking place in the church today, but I don't see it as a good thing... I see it in terms of Jude-- Apostasy, wolves in sheeps clothing, "certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into laciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ..."
My only point here and elsewhere has been: When God seals a person, folding him into the body of Christ, old things pass away and all things become new... he becomes a NEW creature. God does not sanction homosexuality, but recognizes the power such a practice exerts over those caught in that trap. If someone engaged in homosexuality is truly saved, the Holy Spirit would be dealing harshly with him or her... to repent and find healing in Jesus Christ. My problem with homosexuality is not with the person caught in it, but with the Congregation who accepts it as the perfect will of God for that person's life... because nothing could be further from the truth.
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