Thursday, September 21, 2006
Jesus, an Indian?
"I have come to the conclusion that this Jesus was an Indian. He was opposed to material acquirement and to great possessions. He was inclined to peace. He was as unpractical as any Indian and set no price upon his labor of love. These are not the principles upon which the white man has founded his civilization."
-- Dr. Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa, a Santee Sioux), 1916, quoted in Jon Reyhner and Jeanne Eder, American Indian Education: A History (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2004).
(ER editorial comment: Obviously, Eastman/Ohiyesa was thinking of the Plains tribes, or the eastern tribes before they encountered Europeans).
Discuss.
--ER
-- Dr. Charles A. Eastman (Ohiyesa, a Santee Sioux), 1916, quoted in Jon Reyhner and Jeanne Eder, American Indian Education: A History (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 2004).
(ER editorial comment: Obviously, Eastman/Ohiyesa was thinking of the Plains tribes, or the eastern tribes before they encountered Europeans).
Discuss.
--ER
Comments:
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One of the greatest distinctions between western and native cultures is the whole ownership of land issue. Most tribal people saw the earth as its own entity, not owned by anyone, owned by us all - wouldn't that be correct?
The notion that comes closest to this in Western culture (that I can think of offhand) is the whole Jubilee Laws handed down in the Old Testament and endorsed by Jesus in the New. In the Jubilee Laws, we are reminded that the earth is God's, not ours, a very native sort of thinking it seems to me.
The notion that comes closest to this in Western culture (that I can think of offhand) is the whole Jubilee Laws handed down in the Old Testament and endorsed by Jesus in the New. In the Jubilee Laws, we are reminded that the earth is God's, not ours, a very native sort of thinking it seems to me.
Agreed!
Eastman's description is biblical -- and in total conflict with the Jesus embraced by our prosperous, me-first culture. Interesting that he recognized this in 1916 -- it is far more true today than it was then.
Eastman's description is biblical -- and in total conflict with the Jesus embraced by our prosperous, me-first culture. Interesting that he recognized this in 1916 -- it is far more true today than it was then.
# posted by 
: 9:09 AM
: 9:09 AM
Jesus was tribal after all, and the Jubilee does remind one of the Potlatch. It is also worth noting that the earliest Christians were totally communal and gave freely of their wealth and labor to fellow Christians. Any "Christians" that tried that today would be labled as a cult.
ER as you probably are aware Dr. Eastman was a much maligned and ignored Historian, in his time and even until today. He spent years tracking down the post Lewis and Clark saga of Sacajawea.(Which by the way traces her into and through what is now Oklahoma.) All that ethnographic work has been thrown away by current historians because of one written line in one report by a white trader that she had died in the 1820's (her name was not even used in that report).
After all Dr. Eastman was an Indian, what could he know of scholarship?
ER as you probably are aware Dr. Eastman was a much maligned and ignored Historian, in his time and even until today. He spent years tracking down the post Lewis and Clark saga of Sacajawea.(Which by the way traces her into and through what is now Oklahoma.) All that ethnographic work has been thrown away by current historians because of one written line in one report by a white trader that she had died in the 1820's (her name was not even used in that report).
After all Dr. Eastman was an Indian, what could he know of scholarship?
# posted by : 9:36 AM
: 9:36 AM
Re, "Western culture."
I read something yesterday, I think in The Christian Century -- great magazine, BTW, GP and Dan -- that casually referred to Christianity as being "not a Western religion."
And, that's right, isn't it? It's an Eastern thing. Which means its first missionaries to the West apparently were co-opted -- in other words they were converted culturally even as they, in asmuch as they actually did, converted the field.
Which is even more explanation why Christianity is one thing and Jesusianity is another. Talk about having to straddle two worlds. ...
BTW, anyone white person who has spent much time around any American Indians has to accept the theory that the people we call Indians had to come to this continent via a land bridge across the Bering Strait. Which helps explain their "eastern" ways.
I read something yesterday, I think in The Christian Century -- great magazine, BTW, GP and Dan -- that casually referred to Christianity as being "not a Western religion."
And, that's right, isn't it? It's an Eastern thing. Which means its first missionaries to the West apparently were co-opted -- in other words they were converted culturally even as they, in asmuch as they actually did, converted the field.
Which is even more explanation why Christianity is one thing and Jesusianity is another. Talk about having to straddle two worlds. ...
BTW, anyone white person who has spent much time around any American Indians has to accept the theory that the people we call Indians had to come to this continent via a land bridge across the Bering Strait. Which helps explain their "eastern" ways.
Drlobojo, well, if white academics "threw it away," the increasing rise in American Indian scholars will dig it back out again -- although they do have their own biases. Eastman might be too "Americanized" for them. And that's the real tragedy: when two extremes get so far apart that those in the middle lose their influence and voice. Hey, that sounds familiar ...
The eastern bent of Christianity is even more apparent when you look at how many parallels there are between what Jesus and Buddha had to say. There are several books on this topic, including one by Marcu Borg.
(on a completely different topic: ER, have you seen this http://www.ncccusa.org/news/060611nytad.html)
(on a completely different topic: ER, have you seen this http://www.ncccusa.org/news/060611nytad.html)
oops--that's Marcus Borg.
and this is the book:
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-1569751692-4
and this is the book:
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-1569751692-4
Thanks, Kiki, for the link. It judst boggles that whether to torture, and how to parse the language when discussing it, are even points of contention.
And, I keep hearing about Marcus Borg. Is that THE book by him I should read??
And, I keep hearing about Marcus Borg. Is that THE book by him I should read??
"It judst boggles that whether to torture, and how to parse the language when discussing it, are even points of contention"
Amen!
I'd never have thought the day would come where I would have to defend the concept of NOT torturing and killing people TO OTHER CHRISTIANS!
WTF?!! (Excuse my acronym).
Amen!
I'd never have thought the day would come where I would have to defend the concept of NOT torturing and killing people TO OTHER CHRISTIANS!
WTF?!! (Excuse my acronym).
You know that the whole question smacks of Mormonism, dontcha?
But yeah: pretty much what Chief Seattle (okay: Sealth was really his name)was saying in paraphrase: How can you buy and sell the rocks? They live here too!
As you might have guessed, I'm not so well read as far as the Bible goes, but I have a strange feeling that Jesus is on record as having similar feelings about the nature of Ownership.
But yeah: pretty much what Chief Seattle (okay: Sealth was really his name)was saying in paraphrase: How can you buy and sell the rocks? They live here too!
As you might have guessed, I'm not so well read as far as the Bible goes, but I have a strange feeling that Jesus is on record as having similar feelings about the nature of Ownership.
Oh. Sorry. Rambling.
The idea that Jesus *literally* was in the Americas during his lifetime. That's a Mormon belief, I'm pretty certain.
The idea that Jesus *literally* was in the Americas during his lifetime. That's a Mormon belief, I'm pretty certain.
Ah. I think you're right.
I wouldn't put it past him..
:-) Seriously, he wasn't born at age 30. Anyone who says for sure that he did or did not do anything is speculatin' IMHO. 'Course could you have walked from Palestine to the Americas? ...
I wouldn't put it past him..
:-) Seriously, he wasn't born at age 30. Anyone who says for sure that he did or did not do anything is speculatin' IMHO. 'Course could you have walked from Palestine to the Americas? ...
ER said:"...the people we call Indians had to come to this continent via a land bridge across the Bering Strait. Which helps explain their "eastern" ways."
Actually the People we call "Indians" came from ever which way.There were three waves from Asia overland. Possibly two others along the shore. The was at least one group (Solutrians) from Europe. Then there were the Polonesians that brought some of their culture and their cotton strain. Now there is a probability that the Australians came to South America 35,000 or so years ago. As you can see I am a Geographic Diffusionist. Often a "culture" will move along a route and survive when the actual genetic pool that originally carried it doesn't (e.g. Clovis points).
Jesus in America is an LDS concept, as are many other interesting things concerning American Indians.
Actually the People we call "Indians" came from ever which way.There were three waves from Asia overland. Possibly two others along the shore. The was at least one group (Solutrians) from Europe. Then there were the Polonesians that brought some of their culture and their cotton strain. Now there is a probability that the Australians came to South America 35,000 or so years ago. As you can see I am a Geographic Diffusionist. Often a "culture" will move along a route and survive when the actual genetic pool that originally carried it doesn't (e.g. Clovis points).
Jesus in America is an LDS concept, as are many other interesting things concerning American Indians.
# posted by : 8:06 PM
: 8:06 PM
Hey, if ya google, like, Allah and Alabama and Indian and Cherokee, ya might hit some stuff that I've stumbled across a few times in mresearch that suggests that, rather the Indians being the Lost Tribe of Israel, which some ethno-historico-theologian-type thought in the late 18th century, some of the tribes at least, particularly the Cherokees, as I recall, are actually remnants of Muslims who came over way back when.
Thionk of the standard image of the Cherokee syllabary inventer Sequoyah, for example. There appears to be a "towel" on his head.
The thing I saw traced "Ala" in Alabama, which is, or was, a tribe of Indians before it was the name of the state -- it traced "Ala" to "Allah"!
And rightcheer, Pecheur keels plumb over. :-)
Thionk of the standard image of the Cherokee syllabary inventer Sequoyah, for example. There appears to be a "towel" on his head.
The thing I saw traced "Ala" in Alabama, which is, or was, a tribe of Indians before it was the name of the state -- it traced "Ala" to "Allah"!
And rightcheer, Pecheur keels plumb over. :-)
Alabama = Alibaba = Alilabama = Labamba = must have Spanish Moor type Islamic heh?
# posted by : 8:47 AM
: 8:47 AM
Hey ER. Sorry to not answer your question sooner--have been migraney the last few days and avoiding computers.
Anywho, I'd say that you really can't go wrong starting with any of Borg's books. They're stand-alones, really, so there's no problem with just jumping in with what interestes you.
That being said, it seems that most folks start with one of the following: Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time; Reading the Bible Again for the First Time; or The Heart of Christianity.
If you're interested in seeing how his theology might have evolved over the years (something I can't really speak to as I haven't read everything of his), then the first book he published was Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus (1984).
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Anywho, I'd say that you really can't go wrong starting with any of Borg's books. They're stand-alones, really, so there's no problem with just jumping in with what interestes you.
That being said, it seems that most folks start with one of the following: Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time; Reading the Bible Again for the First Time; or The Heart of Christianity.
If you're interested in seeing how his theology might have evolved over the years (something I can't really speak to as I haven't read everything of his), then the first book he published was Conflict, Holiness, and Politics in the Teachings of Jesus (1984).
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