Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

Yuo've done went and gone confederate on me again. Now I know you know that the Cherokee alliance with the Confederates lasted 17 months untill the Confederates lost to the Union forces and withdrew from the Territories. The Cherokees then rejoined the Union, then they killed off each other in their own little civil war within the tribe as well as the big one outside the tribe. Did this flag actually fly anywhere between 1861 and 1862? Did Wattie use it? Or did ole Albert Pike (have you visited his statue outside the Masonic Hall in D.C.) just have this one made?
 

What the Union says the government of the Cherokee Nation did, what the Confederacy said the government of the Cherokee Nation did, and what the Cherokee Nation says the government of the Cherokee Nation did are all different -- and they are all largely correct.

John Ross was recognized as the Cherokee chief by the Union. Watie was recognized as the Cherokee chief by the Confederacy. Watie had his following, and Ross had his following. Elias Boudinot, Watie's nephew, served under his uncle in the field and later as a delagate to the Confederate congress at Richmond.

Cherokee history during the Civil War is complicated. It is correct to say the Cherokees allied with the Confederacy. It is correct to say the Cherokees maintained a diplomatic relationship with the Union. It is incorrect to say that "the Confederates withdrew from the Territories." The Uniion regained control of the forts; Watie and his braves never relented; they fought guerilla-style until the bitter end, until Watie surrendered in June 1865 outside Fort Towson, at Doaksville, after Appomatox -- the last Confederate general to surrender.

Here's a line or two of actual history, by my own hand:

During the Civil War, the area near Webbers Falls (in present Muskogee County) was a hotbed of sympathy for the Confederacy, fueled by the stealthy successes of Confederate Colonel, later Brigadier General, Stand Watie, a Cherokee. However, the only significant Civil War action in what is now Sequoyah County was Watie’s notorious June 15, 1864, capture of the steamboat J.R. Williams by attacking from Pleasant (Pheasant?) Bluff, at present Tamaha in Haskell County; the steamboat ran aground on the north side of the river, where Watie and his men looted it, enlivening the Southern cause.
 

BTW, I have not seen the Albert Pike statue in D.C., but I have seen his cabin, or maybe it's a schoolhouse, I forget, outside the Crawford County Courthouse in Van Buren, Ark., several times.

I also know that the road that goes west out of downtown Fort Smith, into Oklahoma, which is now U.S. Highway 64, originally was called Albert Pike Highway, then called Okahoma Highway 1, which ran right in front of my uncle's house, the one where I saw either his soul in the form of an orb, or the ghost of his daddy, who was shot and killed in 1889 a few miles away, in the form of an orb, or ball lightning, at my uncle's wake at his house in 1973, before it became U.S. 64, which now runs smack in front of the house I grew up in. :-)

Off the cuff: You should read some of John Calhoun's ideas about liberty and who can handle it, then look at the news out of Iraq. The ol' Nullifier was right about a lot of things.
 

What did the Egyptian have to do with the signing of the Cherokee/Confederate treaty?
The answer at the end of this entry.

Ross said that because the Confederates had not delivered on their treaty obligations with the Nation he could negate the treaty and sign on with the Union again. That's what I ment by the Confederates "withdrew", they defacto did not have a military or civilian administrative structure in any of the Nations after 1862, that was not compose of those from the Nations themselves. They withdrew just like the Union had withdrawn in 1861. Both left the Nations to their own intra-Civil Wars plus the outside one as well. As you well know The Nations had the highest per-capita death rate during the Civil War of any of the other States or Territories.
Old Albert was the head dude of the Masons after the War. I got a copy of the 861 page plus 218 pages of footnotes tome he wrote: "Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry" on the shelf behind me as I type.
Now here is a historical character worthy of study. He is the only Confederate officer that is memorialised by a statue in Washington, D.C..

I agree about the Calhon arguments fitting Iraq.

By the way when you return to D.C., as you will, go look at the Pike Statue in Justice Square (it is just up and out of the Metro stop there). Also notice the Masonic building and the giant 13 step truncated pyramid built on top of its roof. Then look at a dollar bill.
 

POLL: Why does T(R)ucke(R) "Cut 'n (R)un' from Snerd?
(A) 'Cause he can't get 'er done
(B) 'Cause Snerd backs 'em down

Snerd's Banned Post: Your question reflects an 'in place' analysis and conclusion. You’re "a - b" 'thinking' as presented, represents the problem (analysis) as Arabic/Muslim/Islamic/etc. terrorism and the consequent option (the conclusion 'trucked in'), is Israel's response.

This pre-existing mindset, from which your 'pall'* question … err … poll question emanates, is the point Kevron is making, I think.

Metaphorically, asking the question whether we/Israel 'stand up' or 'stand down' in the face of terrorism is akin to addressing cancer by 'attacking' its symptoms when they become visible and obvious. Obviously in this metaphor, such an approach misses a deeper analysis of its root causes and less obvious development and therefore a more effective response.

A more 'honest' analysis would include an 'understanding' of the causes of the problem of terrorism.

For example, as a response, are terrorists 'simply' mad dogs who hate 'US' with no rational basis to that position, 'cause they are simply crazy … i.e. your option (a) or (b), the 'exte(R)minato(R) response' to an infestation of your home by termites

OR (c):
Terrorism has its origins in a rationally understandable context, where if the context is understood, that context can be altered and the consequent product controlled, or from a more 'Evolved' perspective 'selected out' … i.e. the elimination of rotting wood where termites breed

OR (d):
Some combination of the two, where there is a context which allows terrorism to take hold, a context of hopelessness say, which is then exploited by mad dogs.

And this is what your option misses, and why when there exists the possibility for more 'honest' options, it appears as a 'false dilemma'.

The way I "Grok" it … (c) or failing that (d)

'Strangely' Yours,
Snerd
 

No clue what the Snerd comment is about.

Drlobo, what you say is true. And what I say is true. But Watie was PART OF the militayr leadership of the Confederacy, and Boudinot, as a delegate to Richmond, was PART OF the civilian leadership of the Confederacy.


More on the fighting, from an article by historian Kenny Franks:

At the outbreak of the Civil War, Watie quickly joined the Southern cause. He was commissioned a colonel on July 12, 1861, and raised a regiment of Cherokees for service with teh Confederate army. Later, when Chief John Ross signed an alliance with the South, Watie's men were organized as the Cherokee Regiment of Mounted Rifles. After Ross fled Indian Territory, Watie was elected principal chief of the Confederate Cherokees in August 1862.

A portion of Watie's command saw action at Oak Hills (August 10, 1861) in a battle that assured the South's hold on Indian Territory and made Watie a Confederate military hero. Afterward, Watie helped drive the pro-Northern Indians out of Indian Territory, and following the Battle of Chustenahlah (December 26, 1861) he commanded the pursuit of hte fleeing Federals, led by Opothleyahola, and drove them into exile in Kansas. Although Watie's men were exempt from service outside Indian Territory, he led his troops into Arkansas in the spring of 1861 to stem a Federal invasion of the region. Joining with Maj. GEn. Earl Van Dorn's command, Watie took part in the bAttle of Elkhorn Tavern (March 5-6, 1861). On the first day of fighting, the Southern Cherokees, which were on the left flank of the Confederate line, captured a battery of Union artillery before being forced to abandon it. Following the Federal victory, Watie's command screened the southern withdrawal.

Watie, or troops in his command, participated in eighteen battles and major skirmishes with Federal troop during the Civil War, including Cowskin Prairie (April 1862), Old Fort Wayne (October 1862), Webber's Falls (April 1863), Fort Gibson (May 1863), Cabin Creek (July 1863), and Gunter's Prairie (August 1864). In addition, his men were engaged in a multitude of smaller skirmishes and meeting engagements in Indian Territory and neighboring states. Because of his wide-ranging raids behind Union lines, Watie tied down thousands of Federal troops that were badly needed in the East.

Watie's two greatest victories were the capture of the federal steam boat J.R. Williams on June 15, 1864, and the seizure of $1.5 million worth of supplies in a federal wagon supply train a the Second battle of Cabin Creek on September 19, 1864. Watie was promoted to brigadier general on May 6, 1864, and given command of the first Indian Brigade. He was the only Indian to achieve the rank of general in the Civil War. Watie surrendered on June 23, 1865, the last Confederate general to lay down his arms.
 

Snerd, the problem with radical Islam is that they are all sexually repressed, anally fixated, true believers. When everything is a sin, one tends to get real bad at displacement and sublimnation.
Get them all laid and drunk provide them with complimentrary internet porn and and an 50 inch HD TV. If that doesn't work, then treat the symptom with radiation therapy.