Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

ER,

Yep. I heard someone say once, "The 'Christian Right' is neither of those."

And the people said Amen.

SuperB
 

Yes, is the Christian Right a Paradox or an Oxymoron?
 

Nice post.
You're PREACHING to the CHOIR. ;)
 

Christian Communists!
 

Yes many of the early churches were Christian communist. Even today the Opus Dei follows that route in several ways.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

Yes, long tradition of communally-owned each-according-to production and distribution systems and it's important to differentiate between "Christian communists" and "Christian Marxists."

Wonder if your rightwing brethren can summon up gospel authority for Christian corporate capitalism? The leap from the Jesus of the Gospels to Exxon, investment banking arbitrage, and the growing executive-factory floor wage differential requires a certain amount of out-and-out perversity.
 

I'm certainly not among the right-wing, but don't forget the parable of the talents. Christianity certainly doesn't support damaging others in the process of earning a living, but there is no conflict with honest capitalism.

To whom much is given, much is expected. The servant who earned the most for his master was given more. The one who was afraid to invest was punished.
 

ER, Pickin' party at my place, all day Sunday.

Bring your own Beverage of choice, and your Instrument.

;-)
 

Hey Er, I happen to agree with your choice in books. Seems Desmond Tutu agrees as well.

By the way, a funny thing happened amid my 'discussions' with TUG, I was unable to post at his site ... No explanation offered. Nevertheless he still seems to hold to a self measured high standard ... "Dissenting opinions are always welcome here, just don't abuse the privelege." tugboatcapn

Someone then directed me to KEv's blog where I learned not only did he ban me, but when challenged on why, he withdrew his explanation (which was pretty lame to begin with - "tedium").

Now relating this to your topic ER, I noticed TUG is all big and puffed-up talking "Christian Chickenhawk Sh*t" (which quite frankly seems beyond crazy to me), about nukin' 'the enemy' being his Christian duty, but when it comes to the courage to defend his own beliefs ... well he seems to neither have the courage to walk the walk, nor even the ability to talk the talk ...

Apparently " God blesses different people in different ways, I guess" - Tug, "My God is Able To Deliver Me", April 22, 2006.

Values, seem to be preemptively assumed on the (R)adical Ch(R)istian (R)ight, and once assumed no longer have to be lived. It is a very bazar mind set.

In terms of 'one's enemies', in TUG's case it is a mind that only sees 'Nukin' them' or 'pacifism', without any of the vast array of intelligent possibilities inbetween those two simplistic poles, neither of which seem very biblical in my mind. Quite frankly, from a psychological perspective, it evidences a very paranoid mind.

Snerd
 

George W. Bush is a saint?

President George W. Bush was scheduled to visit the Episcopal Church outside Washington as part of his campaign to restore his poll standings.

Bush's campaign manager made a visit to the Bishop, and said to him "We've been getting a lot of bad publicity because of the president's position on stem cell research, the Iraq war, Katrina, and the like. We'd gladly make a contribution to the church of $100,000 if during your sermon you'd say the President is a saint."

The Bishop thought it over for a few moments and finally said, "The Church is in desperate need of funds and I will agree to do it."

Bush showed up for the sermon and the Bishop began:

"I'd like to speak to you all this morning about our President. George Bush is a liar, a cheat, and a low-intelligence weasel. He took the tragedy of September 11 and used it to frighten and manipulate the American people. He lied about weapons of mass destruction and invaded Iraq for oil and money, causing the deaths of tens of thousands and making the United States the most hated country on earth.

He appointed cronies to positions of power and influence, leading to widespread death and destruction during Hurricane Katrina. He awarded contracts and tax cuts to his rich friends so that we now have more poverty in this country, and a greater gap between rich and poor, than we've had since the Depression. He instituted illegal wiretaps when getting a warrant from a secret court would have been a mere administrative detail, had his henchmen lie to Congress about it, then claimed he is above the law.

He has headed the most corrupt, bribe-inducing political party since Teapot Dome. The national surplus has turned into a staggering national debt of 7.6 Trillion, gas prices are up 85%, and vital research into global warming and stem cells is stopped cold because he's afraid to lose votes from some religious kooks.

He is the worst example of a true Christian I've ever known. But compared to Dick Cheney and Karl Rove, George Bush is a saint."

Snerd
 

Heard that one before snerd. But it is always good to be reminded.
 

Trixie -

Looking to the ground of that parable for a clue on wealth is like looking to the parable of the ten virgins for wedding etiquette. Worse, really, because the the treatment of the 1 talent servant flies in the face of thr rest of the gospels.

Consider instead the story of the rich man who came to Jesus - reiterated in three gospels. Seeing His response as indicating anything other than that wealth is a very serious spiritual handicap takes a fair measure of willful blindness. His repsonse to not just having but striving to acquire wealth is not hard to extrapolate.

I'm sorry that's an inconvenient message for American Christian capitalists. I'm pretty sure Jesus Christ was not all about convenience - or even prudence. In another context: He is not a tame lion.
 

Well, TStockmann, I'd be interested in what you think the parable of the talents is all about, then.

There is no conflict between this parable and the ones about it being more difficult for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact, the two balance one another. Neither should we make wealth our god, nor should we expect others to pay our way. Money itself is not inherently evil. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil.

And if it's all the same to you, I'll decide for myself whether this parable offers more than a "clue" about what our responsibility is as stewards of everything we've been entrusted with. All that I have and all that I am are gifts from God. What I do with those, whether it be money or fruits of the spirit, is my gift back to God. I am not the owner of those things; He is.

Wealth becomes a problem when we start believing that we ourselves create it, and "Oh my, aren't I wonderful because look how much money I have made!" It's a problem when we start worshipping the money instead of He who has provided for every human need. It's also a problem when we don't trust Him to provide and therefore start to horde instead of relying on Him and believing that He has given each of us the ability to contribute not only to our own needs but to those of others who may not be able to contribute economically. We're told to support the orphans and widows, to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, to visit those who are sick or in jail. We can't do those things if we act like we're above the process of making a living!

The Bible says a lot about how we should handle money and let it be a tool rather than a master. When money is used correctly, it is not a spiritual impediment as you say.

As a matter of providing examples --
Spiritual impediment: A "minister" who has created a multi-level marketing scheme selling green pills to the guillible who think they will increase gasoline mileage.

Not an impediment: Creating wealth by honest labor and fair business practices. Rather than exploiting workers in Third World countries to make crap we don't need, supporting micro economies that make it possible for villages to dig wells for clean water, provide for sanitation and purchase livestock to sustain themselves.

Seems to me you've forgotten that Jesus looks at the heart rather than a list of rules. And that truly is the purpose behind the parables.
 

I agree with parts of what both TStock and Trixie have said, especially great wealth being a spiritual impediment, hbut also this: "We can't do those things (help others) if we act like we're above the process of making a living!" Those are two separate ideas.

Sheila, glad to see ya here. TStock often convolutes things. I don't know why plain old subject-verb-object doesn't work for him, but you get get used to it. He also is opften cranky and a little more personally provocative than he should be. You tend to get used to that, too. :-)

As for the Parable of the Talents, I've always been uncomfortable seeing that as involving "capitalism," per se, although strictly speaking I guess it does.
 

Seems to me it's mroe of a "Hey, don't be afraid, don't hide your light under a bushel" kind of thing, Jesus using a common everyday example, as usual, to get across a simple yet profound truth.

I don't think it should be seen as "approving" or "condoning" capitalism any more than the parable referring to seed, hard ground, fertile ground, tares, etc., should be seen as approving or condoning farming. It just was, and provided a vehicle for the message.
 

Consider this: It was the poorest person and the one with the least that was scared to put it out for possible losses. Which is harder, a rich man to give half of all he owns and trust in Gods grace to provide, or a poor man to do the same? Which is easier, a man alone to take such a chance or a man in a supportive group to do so? This parable is the counter balance to the richman-eye-of-the-needle parable. Who then must have more faith? A rich man or a poor man?
It is all about the Kingdom of Heaven, capitalism is not of Heaven.
As far as breaking Chrisitianity into "government formats" please note that the current Christian Dogma is very much a Government Format created and adopted over time by the Holy Roman Church and then retained by the "protestant" church. That is why the current U.S. Government format of Christianity seems so out of synch with what many Christians believe Jesus intended. Divergence and division are signs of freedom and democracy. Otherwise, if we are in lock step with one another, then look for the dictatorial head that controls us.
 

On the parable of the talents and the issue of economics and church, I highly recommend any writings you can find by Ched Myers.

Here's one from Sojourners:

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=
magazine.article&issue=soj9805&article=
980520

Myers takes the interesting position that the Bible is, among other things, an economics book, with more discussion on wealth and poverty on nearly anything else. And clearly, in an honest reading of the whole of the Bible, the wealthy come out on the short end of the stick.

Myers' take on the parable of the talents is that we have it exactly backwards. The man with the one talent recognizes that the master is a "hard man, plowing where he hasn't planted, etc" - not exactly how we tend to recognize God. The man with the one talent is a whistle-blower, speaking truth to power that the master is wanting ill-gotten gain. This brings the wrath of the master down on the truth-teller and he is cast out (as the poor and truth-tellers often are) and what he had is given to the servant who best served the hard master (as good ol' boys are often rewarded).

There are problems with this interpretation but, I'd have to say that it makes much more sense to me than the traditional interpretation.

Check Myers' out, he's online in various places and has a great little booklet called Sabbath Economics.
 

Hell, I thought I the resident cynic here.
 

In either case, the Parable of the Talents doesn't represent an endorsement of wealth.

Forgive me for not thinking that this is one of the few topics on which Jesus is pretty unambiguously on one side of the issue, even in modern terms:

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

and not even on the side of prudence:

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well

And that it's the love of money, not money makes the indictment even more applicable to the striving middle classes as the idle rich: the danger is where the the mind goes, and Bill Gates is certainly no more consumed with money than most of us down here.

Trixie - the God of the Gospels doesn't have anything to do with playing nice with others.
 

I believe the usual take on the NT God is merciful beyond just, or what we might call "more than fair."
 

I'm coming to see the evolving images of God in the Bible as reflecting humankind's maturing concept of itself, not that God can't change of His own volition. But whatever. Jesus offers radical alternatives: "You have heard it said ... but I say ..." See Sermon on Mount. Most people had the whole concept of God wrong, He was saying, even after the prophets. Enter "The Way." Love.