Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

This book reviewed this week may also be relevant:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401674.html

I found this interesting - never knew about the treaty with Tripoli:

But Jefferson's references were not to Christ, and Meacham argues that claims that the United States is a "Christian nation" are based on "wishful thinking, not convincing historical argument." He cites Washington's famous 1790 letter to the Jewish community in Newport, R.I., which said that America "gives . . . bigotry no sanction," as well as a far less well known provision in a 1797 treaty with Muslim Tripoli that declared, "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
 

Promoting one government sactioned religion over another in the end, is the death of that relgion.
It is simple demographics.
If the evagelical conservative protestant christian right has their way they will reign but a few decades and then the Spanish oriented Catholic church will reign for a time. Some counties/states will have Jewish laws and some Islam, and many will be based on Krishna or Buddah or Joseph Smith, each as the voters decide.

Israel today is facing the extinction of the "jewish" state simply because the non-Jews are out-breeding the Israelie Jews.

Of course each religion knows that their god will intervene on their behalf so they are not intially worried about their power being deminished.

When the anti-christ comes he will have no trouble turning any "religious" state to his uses. The government structure and the people will already be predisposed to follow.

I wonder how many good people know how close to basphemy a "christian" government really is.
Every time we take an oath for any secular reason in God's name we break the comandment of taking God's name in vain. In point of fact reciting the pledge of allegiance is taking God's name in vain. Flying a Christian Flag at the same level or just below the level of the American Flag flown beside it is putting another god before God.
God has made a covenant with only one nation and it is not a govenment, but a nation of people, the Jews.
America has no covenant. There is not need of one.

As the first GW said and TS reported above : "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
If it were otherwise it would not be America. To this GW, I would say Mr. president repair that wall of seperation and keep it strong
 

I honestly do not understand what the Christian righties do not understand about the following:

Islamic extremists DO want to take over the world, and they DO want to bring this country to its knees, for its world sins and excesses both real and imagined -- whether they do so from within or without. That the righties and I agree on, although they would be offended that I acknoweledge this country is guilty of real sinc and excesses.

But it is the very wall that separates church and state that would be the first, last and best protection against some judge giving an Islamic reading to a law -- which is why none of us should want a "Christian" reading given to a law!

That door should remain locked for good and forever.
 

I read three newpapers and watch three or four different news channels everyday and 90% of the time that I hear church and state in the same sentence it's on this blog. You're the one hung up on it, not America. But by some of the sources you quote I can see why. Most people don't read or pay any attention to the trash you get riled up about.
 

Yes, but YOU do, Anon, right here!

... and what does any of that have to do with anything anyway? When did I ever profess to give a rip about what MOST of the people care about? Fact is, if all YOU care about is what's in your billfold and what's in your belly, why, you're right smack-dab under the bell. That's OK, Anon, don't you worry your purdy little head about it. I'll keep taking care of ya, keepin' ya up to speed on the important issues of the day.

Pif.
 

No kidding. And for that matter, I also disagree with the whole 'no one else cares about this issue' thing.
If so, why is it that every other time I read right-wing blogs, they're making themselves all upset and quoting certain of the Founders out of context, to make the point that they think that this was indeed a country founded by that big weirdo in the sky from the Old Testament.
So it's not just us Libbles, Nonie. Now again, what's your damage, exactly?
 

Considering the particular "Church" that you attend, ER, I can completely agree with you on this one.

I want that bunch kept as far away from any Law Making Body as possible.
 

Exactly Tug, Exactly!
Right own.
Not his, not yours, not mine.
 

That's "Right ON!"
 

I too read three or more papers a day (Grit, The Iowa Famer's Weekly news, Sorgum Supplement Journal, and the Minnesota Hunter's Weekly), and I also watch most of the 5:00 A.M. news broad casts in my mid-western town and listen to my country radio station all day while I'm in my pickup going back and forth runnin errands.
I have to agree, I don't hear much about this subject, except on this blob.
I can't help but think America, the America I know, just doesn't care about the seperation of church and state. So long as we have prayer in school, the ten commandments in front of the court house, "under god" in the pledge, "in god we trust" on our money, bible study at our public school in the auditorium, and my church retains its federal commodities for the Wednesday night dinners, I think the state should stay out of religion. Except maybe when those holy rollers' kids do not want to say the pledge of allegence, then they might ought to be forced to.
Anon is right, for me and mine it is just a non starter, this dog won't hunt, it don't make a tinker's dam.
 

Tuggy, you are gonna be so surprised to see who make it "to" "heaven"! Hee hee.

I can't WAIT. Oh, well, actually, yes, I can.

Oh, and in response to that dig:

At least I go to church. I don't pretend that the Lord "told" me to quit!

Yer a riot, Tugster, you and every other righty who hangs around here and acts so mortified at my church, which I love dearly -- and I mean "my" in the same sense as I mean "my" family, smart-ass -- WHO DO NOT EVEN ATTEND ANY CHURCH AT ALL. There are more'n a few of you.

Shut. Up.
 

Okay, I'm about tired of you anyway.

Go ahead and buy into false Doctrine if it makes you feel good.

I'm not pretending anything.

You do not know what is in my heart. You do not know what the Lord has told me.

But then again, I am not getting my Theology from any human being at this particular time, but rather from Prayerful study of God's Holy Word, and from Personal Guidance from the Lord Himself.

"I'm Better than you! I go to Church, and YOU DON'T!" says ER.

You make me sick.

Continue in your ignorance and arrogance.

I am done with you.
 

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
 

One parting shot, though, in the form of another irrellevant passage from the Bible, which probably doesn't apply to you, or anyone like you.

Probably was written only to apply to Republicans.

Luke 18:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Like I said, that probably doesn't apply to you.

YOU go to Church, and I don't, so obviously YOU are FAR more righteous than I.
 

Interesting confrontation, you guys.

A priest and a deacon are peeking out from the vestibule at a man sitting in the back pew of church, beating his breast and saying aloud, "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner."
The priest turns to the deacon and says, "Now look at who thinks he's a sinner!"

The publican was not justified because of his prayer, he was justified because of his true contrition. Who of us actually identifies with the Pharisee after all? We all are the tax collector/ publican in our own minds. To attain contrition, well that's a very difficult thing to do really.
"Go and sin no more." That's the hard thing.
 

Pif, Tug. Pif (not worth "piffle")

Never said i was better'n you or anyine else. But I wouldn't go quotin' the Lions Club bylaws if I didn't show up for the meetings.

Besides that, you can't quit me, Jack. (snicker).

And if ya do, it'll be yer loss, bro. -- since apparently the only fellowship you have with any believers is on-line. Just keep closin' yerself off like that, if you can stand yer own company. :-)
 

Oooh. I just saw yer "parting shot" -- woo hoo. More sings that Tug's conscience has been pricked! And by a no-good lib like me!

Typical response to the Gospel truth: hostility.

The Lord do work in mysterious ways!
 

OK, guys. Just STOP IT. I know it may be rude to come to someone else's blog and tell them to knock it off when they are fighting with someone else, but this is crap. This is not right behavior between two brothers who both claim Christ's redemption. STOP IT. Some apologies need to take place here. Then move on to other topics until you can play nice again. Go sit in the corner if you need to.
 

I agree.

Tug, I apologize.

Didn't mean to preach AT you.

I do mean to preach some. But I never mean to direct it at any one person -- I mean, "real" person, since public figures are and always will be fair game. :-)
 

Does it ever occur to you that the real debate between Christians in this country actually comes down to the split personality God displays between the Old and New Testaments?
Looks that way to me, as an outsider.
 

r-b, that was settle by vote at the Councel of Nicene in 322 C.E..
I think if you studied the O.T. in detail you'd see some variation of God's persona even within that book. God puts down some really harsh Commandments in Genesis that Isaiah has him take back latter. And oh yes, the God in the book Job does seem to differ a bit from the God in most other of the books.
Now of course it is our dogma that God hasn't change just our understanding of him has. That was voted on too at Nicene.
 

Hmm, to this outsider it looks more like the accidental Book is incoherent enough that it means anything its various adherents want it to mean, from slavery to abolition, from Torquemada to the Shakers, from Hull House to Hell House. And nothing quite like treating it with abysmal ahistoricism to make it "timeless" and using culturally bound translations to make it "universal."

Ro answer the question in a previous post, faith is hard becuase so many of the faithful are so intelligent thelselves, and ever time reason pokes its furry little head of the ground, it's whack-a-mole time.
 

TStock,

I think this was mentioned above, or somewhere else, but if you look at the Bible as the quest for man to conceive of God, rather than God's "revelation" to man, it all makes much more sense, both spiritually and intellectually.

It's still inspired, for the quest to seek God, and the truth, is a holy quest.

"Infallible," "inerrant" "God-breathed" and all that fear-based, idolatrous crap, no.

Still sacred. Still holy. Not literal -- not in the sense that fundies insist it is.
 

TS, keep thinking, you are closer than you know. but as Robert Frost has said:
"Some would soon through it all, as through a part away."
That's what has to be avoided.
The D. Dads will never know that they "translate" even the KVJ as they read it, for you can only understand what you know. You can only have as much of God as you can digest (a very old premise).
 

You can only have as much of God as you can digest (a very old premise). -DrL

Funny - I feel the same way about Plato. I guess everything transcendental in aim has to be like that.
 

Actually it is more than transcendental, is it gastrointestinal as well all the way from the neolithic to last Sunday. You are what you eat. Eat God be God.
 

Ha! C.S. Lewis's "bit of mustard" comes to mind!