Sunday, May 14, 2006


Lady Liberty is a bitch

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

--Emma Lazarus

Then there's this:

Associated Press

WASHINGTON - President Bush will call for thousands of National Guard troops to be deployed along the Mexico border in support of patrols aimed at keeping out illegal immigrants, White House officials said Sunday on the eve of an Oval Office address announcing the plan.

White House aides worked into the night Sunday to iron out details of the proposal and allay concerns among lawmakers that using troops to man the border would further burden an overextended military.

Read all about it.

Some of the tired, poor and those yearning to breasth free will be shot down. Count on it. We should just tear down the Statue of Liberty. Or at least shroud her in her shame, and cover up that poem until the business people who let illegal immigration out of hand in the first place are taxed to pay for a way to fix it.


You know, back when that poem was penned, the majority of immigrants came here looking to assimilate. The vast majority of Mexicans coming up have no desire to 'fit in'. The same can be said of the illegals (the majority, anyway) coming from any of the Carribbean nations. Something's got to be done. Troops sound like the answer to me. It's too bad that they probably won't be deployed. If they are deployed, they'll be so hamstrung by beaurocratic regulations that they won't be able to do any good, anyway.
I'm not sure sure that most immigrants in the 1880s came ready to assimilate. Many did, and they're the ones, like successful Hispanics today, who did come to assimilate enough to start businesses, or get good jobs and start families, or bring their families up. It's the second genreration, isn't it, that really becomes part of the fabric of this country?

Here's where my R kicks in: Get 'em reading and speaking English asap -- and I'm willing to see tax momney go for that, of course. And get 'em legal. And get Mexico to do something.

Ah, but we're both just regular joes -- or joses. As long as big money rules, and big money does rule, what we think doesn't amount to a hill of frijoles.
You're right, what you want doesn't amount to a hill of frijoles. You are against anything Bush does so you don't count. He knows it too. He knows he can't make 30 or 40 percent of the country happy so he does what's best and lets the chips fall where they may. Most of you can't cope with a dead battery and a flat tire in the same week without wringing your hands but when it comes to running the country you have all the answers.
Yes, Anon, but you're wrong about the battery and flat tire part. Come omn, whaddaya think I am, a goldarn sissy city slicker? My hands are purdy smooth, but it's because I worked my way to a white collar. My neck remains red, however.

Besides that, I didn't say he oughten notdoit. I questioned it. I said we oughta cover up Lady Liberty until we get this figured out.

Your complaint proves the point: Anyone who questions the Bush regime is branded an idiot, or the political enemy, or worse. Thanks for living up to my lowest expectations.
Back a bit when I was slogging through some family history I ran across a "fact" that one third of those who have immigrated to America over lo these many years have permanently left and returned home. This comes from a geneolgy site with no dog in the current immigration hunt.

It is:

The author says that no one is actually keeping records of who leaves, whether it is for a visit then they return to America or whether they never do return.

Same kind of thing about the current Mexican/American immigration situation. I would suspect that those who come only for economic reasons intend to return to Mexico and have no reason to assimilate. Some probably assimilate by "accident" because they are here so long and when they go "home" it doesn't seem like home anymore.
The last three or four Administrations have left this go on so long that we are really at the crisis point now. It will be impossible for this to be resolved with out a lot of pain and suffering on both sides of the question. Sometimes we get to choose between good and evil, sometimes between good and good, this time it a choice between worse and worse. No matter what the result, it will create evil for someone.
Bush is in the Lose/Lose position. Nothing he does can be correct even if it may be right(NPI).
My maternal grandparents (both of whom are in their late 80's, just for a time frame) are from the St. Louis area, where there were several German-language newspapers up until WWII.

My grandmother is third-generation Alsatian, and her family spoke both German and English at home--it wasn't about fitting in, it was about being able to communicate with the elders in your community while at the same time being able to communicate with all the other immigrants (St. Louis had large numbers of people from Italy, Poland, and Ireland, too).

My fifth-generation cousins and I grew up with "danke shoen" and "Gesundheit" instead of "thank you" and "bless you," but other than that, the German language is no longer used by any of us.

It just takes time, is all.
Rem, pray tell, what evidence do you have to support the statement that "the vast majority of Mexicans coming up have no desire to 'fit in'"? What do you mean that it's too bad that the troops will be constrained? Do you want them to be able to shoot people down on sight? And ER, can you please 'splain to me the mania the American public seems to have about these people learning English (because last I heard, we didn't have a "national language")? Also, what the hell is everyone so freaked out about all of a sudden? I mean, it's not like this hasn't been going on for years and years and years, and the world hasn't ceased to spin on its axis, so why hit the panic button now? Could it be because the administration has decided to divert the public's attention from issues on which they are failing miserably, like the Iraq War, corruption in their own house, the economy for the average American citizen? Oh, and my goodness, what will Dubya say to his real base -- Corporate America -- when he cuts off their cheap labor supply?

Inquiring minds want to know.
"The vast majority of Mexicans coming up have no desire to 'fit in'."

do you have a source for this factoid, or did it fall out of your arse?

"fit in"! narf!

rsb beat me to it. i should read all of the comments before submitting....

Red State Blues,

Look around. They wave the Mexican flag (or the Cuban, or the Dominican, etc.), not the American one. They do not try to learn the language (yes, English is the de facto national language). There are whole sections of South Florida (probably Texas and NM, too) where a person not fluent in Spanish can not communicate. I've come into contact with many illegal Mexicans (a small fraction of the whole, of course) and they mostly come to earn money to go back/send back home. The Cubans in the southern end of my state are the same way - most of them claim to be waiting Fidel out. They have no desire to become American. Instead, they put a drain on the taxpayers of this nation while adding nothing to the tax-pool.

As to the troops - yes, it is a very bad thing to highly constrained troops. Constrained troops become a joke. After Hurricane Andrew, the National Guard (among others) was called upon for security in South Florida. Once it was clear that they were hanstrung, they became victims themselves with many having to surrender their weapons rather than be allowed to defend themselves. So yes, the troops should be given latitude. We are a sovereign nation and should be allowed to defend our soil.

There are legal means for entering this country - they should be utilized. That's what amazes me about those opposed to protecting the border - they would rather allow criminal activity and compromised security rather than doing something that might seem 'mean'. The fact that the Mexican government sanctions this sort of thing makes it even worse. At least Cuba tries to prevent it (except in the cases where Fidel allows a boat load of criminals to leave).
Also, what the hell is everyone so freaked out about all of a sudden? I mean, it's not like this hasn't been going on for years and years and years, and the world hasn't ceased to spin on its axis, so why hit the panic button now?

Explain this logic to me. If it is wrong, then it is wrong. Imagine if that logic had been used toward the end of WWII when the Nazi concentration camps had been discovered. Wrong is wrong and right is right.

And for the record, I've been opposed to illegal immigration since I was old enough to understand it. Due to my geographic location, my interest has been in securing the seas, but from a security standpoint, the Mexican border is far more important.
Actually the imigration quotas for Mexico is zero, have been since the last amnesty. There are some loop hole for poor Mexicans, but they only let a few thousand per year in. You could wait till hell froze over if you did it legally.

However, like the Romans did in times of old (see Paul the Apostle),the United States does sell American citizenship. It cost exactly $1,000,000. No shit sherlock, if you can invest $1,000,000 in a new developing business in the U.S. you get yourself moved up to the head of the line and expeditied to full citizenship no matter from whence you came.
Now you can't get here legally from Mexico if your poor, but you can if you are rich. Sounds like a "class" thing to me.
Nope, life is not fair.
Nor can it be.
RSB, re: "And ER, can you please 'splain to me the mania the American public seems to have about these people learning English (because last I heard, we didn't have a "national language")?"

Two reasons:

I'm lazy and do not want to have to learn Spanish. Selfish. But true, although I do plan to take a drash course of some kind, in self defense.

The Constitution is in English. As much hell as we have dealing with it and interpreting the nuances of English in applying the law already, I think we do need to nationalize English and the in fact, not just de facto, language of the government of this country, especially the justice system. It's in defense of the newcomers that I hold this position.

In addition to the lazy part.

REM, I agree with you part way: Soldiers' duty is to shoot and kill and defned. Not to "police" or patrol. Oklahoma and the rest of the Plains have more than adequate experience with soldiers being called to do less than shoot, kill and defend. See Indians. See defense of Indian, and U.S., territory in dealing with squatters, boomers and intruders in the late nineteenth century. They were ineffective becasue they were called to do less than their duty.

Which is why we are asking for trouble -- major, major trouble -- if we call on the miltary to act as police or patrols, but do not allopw them to shoot, kill and defend. They *will* become demoralized and dragged into adjudication.

Either fully militarize the border, legally, constitutionally and really, or don't. Half-measures will create more chaos than we have now.

Posse Comitatus.
"Some of the tired, poor and those yearning to breasth free will be shot down"

Not that it would happen, but, so what? they are illegal! they are blatantly breaking our laws and disrespecting our sovreignty.

What part of the words illegal aliens don't you understand?

I remember when breaking the law was a crime and carried with it penalties.

In my opinion, if they break our laws by illegally entering this country, and it takes shooting some of them to make the point to the rest of them, go for it!

This open borders crap has got to stop, one way or the other. Remember some of the illegals streaming over the borders are Islamic Jihadist bent on destroying us.

Perhaps you wouldn't be so lenieint if your family was murdered by one of these so- called immigrants.
What a heartless thing to say.

Jesus says feed the hungry -- and you'd shoot them dead in their tracks? Astounding.

Go have some coffee, and think about it and come back, read what you just wrote and tell me how you fit such thinking into your faith. I'm really curious.
If I can interject a small phrase:

Rule of law. Rule of laws, not men.

Until Congress passes and the President signs a law changing the requirements for entry into the United States, the President as executive has the responsibility to enforce that law. That means regardless of the high minded breastbeating abuot huddled masses and Latino special pleading, that refusing to deport people quite openly in violation of the law is wrong. I suspect that the U.S. won't be able to live with its immigration laws once it starts to enforce them, but to me sporadic or nonenforcement is dangerous to liberty and a violation of the various oaths of office. If you're conscience-bound to oppose the law, you belong out of office - and possibly, Thoreau-like, in jail.

As for this huddled masses thing -it's as hypocritical to say that it's only applicable to people in a geographic position to skirt legslative policy, just as the the treatment of refugees depending on whether they manage to set foot on US soil or are intercepted 100 meters offshore lacks any decent principle.

I had stuff to say about the immigrants themselves and where I think the policy ought to go, but it occurred to me that it would just distract from what I thought was realy important. In some weird way, line me up with Rem and Mark on enforcement, including RICO on the people who knowlingly assist illegals to stay.
Matthew 25:31-40: "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you?

When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'

And the king will answer them, 'I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.'

That's all I need to know to know that this "immigration reform" is a horrible idea.

America is a bountiful, land of plenty. We have barely settled 20% of its land.

We have plenty of room, plenty of opportunity and immigration has been the single biggest economic engine in the history, not just of our nation, but the world.

We can easaily absorb the 12 million, the 20 million, they claim are here.

We need do nothing.
Yeah, that's all YOU need to know. Look, Carl, if "God" cared about suffering, all he'd have to do is lift one little omnipotent and Voom! everyone's fed and sitting in front of a widescreen TV with the Good News Channel in sensaround sound. Or are you calling Him a hypocrite.

Yeah, yeah - I know - this world is like a Gold's Gym of the soul, where we buff up our spiritual muscles for the heavy lifting of the Happily Ever After.

Always good to remember that any agreement between seculars and religious on policy on either the right of left is strictly accidental, since we're starting from different premises.

Okay, that's not totoally - not coincidental that libertarian atheists and evangelicals came to the (belated) shared conclusion that, for example, slavery is wrong. The premises come afterwards.
TStock, you labor under the delusion that all Christians labor under the delusion that God is a big Santa Claus in the sky -- and a mnena one at that, since he has all the power to change and fix things and refuses to do so.

That's a dimestore God. Jesus brought the Kingdom of Heaven and his followers, those who actually follow Him and don't just quote Him and misquote Him, continue to advance the kingdom, by following His example.

But it's easier not to believe, and I don't blame you or anyone else for looking at the world, and the church, and prevailing notions of God -- or "God" if you like -- and just thinking WTF?
"Look around."

that's what i thought. other than some dubious anecdotal evidence, you cannot even remotly attempt to support your claim.

KEvron, who has looked around
"What part of the words illegal aliens don't you understand?"

what part of "cruel and unusual punishment" don't you understand?

big heart you've got there, mark. almost as big as your GIANT BRAIN....

A Modest Proposal:
Enough already with all this bullshit rhetoric!
Enforce the existing law!
Don't attack the result, attack the cause.
Illegal Profits.
Put the people that illegaly hire those that are here illegaly in jail for substantial amounts of time and you will break the whole cycle. I don't mean put a few dozen or a few hundred behind bars, I mean do a nation wide round up and put away several tens of thousands of law-breaking greedy Americans in labor camps for several years. Fine the heck out of the corps and put their head dudes in jail, and put mama down the street with the illegal cook in there too.
Enforce the existing law.
Tell all these fools that on a date certain the round up will occur if they persist in their behavior.
Don't deport a single illegal alien, you won't have to. Don't mess with the good misguided Samaritan, they won't be needed. Most of those 11 million illegals would go home all by themselves. No job-no money-no money-no reason to be here-time to leave. There will be traffic jams on the highways headed into Mexico. The problem drains away like bath tub water.
THEN and only THEN figure out how many we need back here and how to do it.
Just Enforce The Existing Law!
And guys, it dosen't take the Fed's to do it. It can be done at the state level.

I'm just curious - can you do anything other than snipe? I have yet to see you engage in debate. I guess that would require the use of more than one or two poorly punctuated sentences. Oh wait - that style of writing is cool. My bad.
Kevron has a thing for calling people on their BS, espcially peopel who let emotion get in the way of an argument, or who confuse depth of feeling with a strong moral position. That's my take on it, anyway. And long as it's not too profane, it's OK by me. I do prefer commenters to address ideas, nit people -- but I fail at that regularly, so I try to be pretty lenient.

Examples of Kevron's not sniping:

I wrote: "I cannot see myself being one of those boys"

He wrote: "can you not imagine the lifetime of anguish one must suffer, in being restrained by social attitudes, to deny their innermost self? much of ang's work is based on that theme."

-- from my post on Brokeback Mountain.

I wrote: "Anon, you may be right. It galls me today that people venerate Reagan."

He wrote: but then, reagan never scored in the thirties. and he didn't plunge us into an ill-defined, interminable war (although his admin did build the foundation for it).
--from my post called "Finishing a Thought on War in Iraq.
I just reread what mark wrote. Makes me sick.

"In my opinion, if they break our laws by illegally entering this country, and it takes shooting some of them to make the point to the rest of them, go for it!"

Outragous. Mark should be ashamed of himself. I'd sooner put him on a bus and send him south as the guys who mow yards in my very white suburb during the day, then go home at night. Right-wing Christian, Mark is.

And right there, I directed a comment at a perason, niot an idea -- but what a "person."
ER - It would be interesting to see a post on what you do believe, in propositional and definite rather than figurative language, on God (omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, immanent, conscious, man-in-the-likeness-of and whatever other traditional traits are normally assigned), the divinity of Jesus, and the reliability of the Gospels as an index to what he (or He) said. But not here.

DrL: That's hardly current law, which I think envisions fines rather than labor camps for the employers. But I could be wrong. Anyway, looks like the Sprucers are in some sort of accord on this, eh?

Mark: You're a liberal - letting all those organs going to waste when the line of Americans awaiting transplants in a mile long. Don't shoot them - harvest them. Agriculture is generally acknowledged to have been an civilizational advance on huntin'
Pretty good discussion going on here. But no one commenting here who supports draconian measures such as letting the National Guard shoot to kill has addressed my last (and most important question, which was: What will Dubya say to his real base -- Corporate America -- if he shuts off their supply of cheap labor? Come on, you guys have been pretty big Dubya fans, based on your posts at this site in the past. Y'all seemed to believe that he was looking out for the little guys like you, but that worm turned long ago.

As ever, I bow in reverance at drlobojo's feet, because of course he is correct that to resolve the problem you have to go to the root cause and enforce the laws against Dubya's bosom buddies. And THAT ain't never gonna happen. I'll hasten to add that it is highly unlikely ever to happen with a Democrat in the White House too. Both parties are too beholden to the corporate America. They suckle at the same teets.
Tstock, I've been thinking about. It would be necesarrily squisjy, compared to the rock-hard "confidence" of those on the right, and because, while I think God is immutable, man's concepts of Him most certainly are not. That would take some doing, and it would help me get my thoughts in order. Summer project.
Yep, the Feds ain't gonna ante up on this. But the States can. For example let us consider how many illegal aliens there would be in Oklahoma, if Oklahoma passed a law making it a felony to hire illegal aliens? In our state we can make law by initiative petition. All it would take is a few hundred dollars, for the fees, and a few nuts to stand in front of Walmarts and collect the 50,000 (or what ever number)signatures needed, then it would go as a vote before the people.
Basically such action would scare the be-jesus out of the professional politicians and they would get on the stick and do something. Oklahoma is ripe for this kind of radical activity because we just had "term limits" wipe out all of our old gard in the House and half in the Senate.
Power to the People you all!

P.S. Don't even suggest that I should do this myself. I'm to old and cynical and lazy and I just instigate not consumate.
Carl, Amen.

Mark, since some of the things you have written in the past show otherwise, frankly it is shocking to see you stand so boldly here in direct opposition to the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm going to hope you were just having a bad day when you wrote those words...
What Would John Spruce Do?
"I'm just curious"

no you are not "just curious". you're sniping.

"can you do anything other than snipe?"

i can detect bs from a mile away, as well.

"I have yet to see you engage in debate."

and you're unlikely to ever see me do so on the internets. it's "virtually" impossible, the primary hinderance being an acute lack of intellectual honesty on the part of my opponets (they tend to say things like "the vast majority", while lacking any substantive proof to support such claims).

"I guess that would require the use of more than one or two poorly punctuated sentences."

jealous much, snipey?

"Oh wait - that style of writing is cool."

what a sniperific observation!

"My bad."

your snipe as well.

still waiting for your source (maybe you'll concede that my guess of "arse" was correct)....

KEvron, still looking around
"What will Dubya say to his real base -- Corporate America -- if he shuts off their supply of cheap labor?"

i don't believe corporate america relies that heavily on illegal labor. it' seems to me that small businesses are the primary culprits; easier for a small business to cover their tracks.

It is the indirect route that corporate America takes on this.
Contractors, sub-contrators, sub-sub-contractors= illegal alien labor.
Prime example: rebuilding New Orleans.

You are right - my last post was quite 'snipey'. I apologize.

I cannot give you hard numbers to support my claim, just as you cannot supply me with hard numbers to refute it. Although my wording may have been technically incorrect, the meat of my statement has merit. I would point you to the following:

Reconsidering Immigration, Is Mexico a Special Case?

Immigration From Mexico, Assessing the Impact on the United States

Mexican Assimilation in the United States
"I apologize."
why? sniping's not a crime.

"I cannot give you hard numbers to support my claim, just as you cannot supply me with hard numbers to refute it."

fine. all illegals never waive anything but the stars and stripes. just look around.
gorsh! duhbaitin's fun!

"Although my wording may have been technically incorrect, the meat of my statement has merit."
you worded it exactly how you meant it. you meant it based on hypersensitized observation. it still lacks any merit whatsoever.

"I would point you to the following"

why not just point me here?! look: your outlandish claim, your responsibilty to support it. if you're so keen on those links, go to them and retrieve for us the relevant passages (this is a common practice on the internets; considered a courtesy, as it gives the reader an idea of the intended matter. also, relevant quotes support one's claims). otherwise, "no thank you" to your offer of a snipe hunt (see what i did there?!)

Caution is out.

As Chief Floorman (i.e., "bouncer") of the Erudite Redneck Roadhouse, I must point out that providing links is acceptable in this joint. Coupled with personal interpretation and analysis is better. But links are fine, because I, myself, wouldn't know about a lot of things if people didn't point me to 'em.

Pace car is comin' back around.

Green green.
Then there was the WalMart cleaning crews from a contractor that were all illegal aliens including the contractor. The people doing the cleaning were making less than a buck an hour.
Oh yes, and the Tyson Chicken plucking plant I was at in rural NW Arkansas, where nobody spoke English and there was a little Mexico sprouted up across the road from it.
How many mexican motel maids have I encountered at chain motels recently? Legal? Illegal?
What's missing to keep the Corp's on the straight and narrow:Unions.
They don't really exist any more.
Where they do exist they are fat and stupid.
Chew on that one.
drlobojo, one minor correction to your final sentence w/r/t unions: "Where they do exist they are fat, corrupt and stupid." But Lordy, we could use some strong unions now.
Well, ER . . . you seemed to endorse Kevron. I don't know why, as I still see nothing positive that he brings to the table. Still, based on this endorsement, I attempted to engage him. My attempt was not to his satisfaction so I received more of his vile. He cannot be civil towards those he disagrees with. Ironically, he commits the same infractions for which he claims to crusade against: it' seems to me that small businesses are the primary culprits; easier for a small business to cover their tracks. He offers nothing to back this up, but because he agrees with it, it is OK. You can have Kevron - I'm through with him.
Oh, bull, Rem. I neither "endorse" him nor you.

I confess I am more tolerant of those who question, and of those who do not profess to have all the answers or a lock on the truth.

What I do endorse, generally, is freedom of expression on this blog, until it gets regularly profane, and until someone starts doing nothing whatsoever but attack me and other commenters.

KEv regular comes right up to the edge, and he does, actually, like to have the last word. Most of the time, I let him. So what? No harm, no foul.

But "endorse"!?! Pif.
"it' seems to me"

maybe you missed this quaifier. in using it, i essentially prefaced my comment with a disclaimer that i am not attempting to state personal observation/opinion as fact. you said "vast majority". just for shits and giggles, i checked your links. the first two links were only tangentially relevant at best. your third link, however, did contain relevant matter. however, the numbers cited in that pdf, while alarming, do not support your claim of "vast majority".

you went on to say "troops sound like the answer to me". i'll acept this as a clumsy non-sequitur, or did you indeed meant to suggest that troops should be used to force assmiliation?

"He cannot be civil towards those he disagrees with."

lol! i'll keep that in mind the next time you insult my prose!

KEv = turtle.

Gets a bite and won't let go until it thunders!
"I must point out that providing links is acceptable in this joint."

links are great, as long as they're relevant. too many times, i've called fright-wingers on their outrageous assertions, and demanded of them citations, only to be sent on wild goose chases. once, a fellow named stan made a claim about ceaser chavez that i found to be ridiculous, so i challenged him on it. he finally gave me seven links; five were about fidel castro, and the other two were round-ups (pages that offer several links to various articles/web sites) about venezuela, neither of which offered any evidence to support his claims. had a similar experience with mike at mike's america. the kicker is, either person could have easily shut me down by simply supplying the relevant quotes.

links without quotes are smoke screens, meant to distact rather than inform. accept them if you like; i will always balk.

"hugo chavez"!

"What's missing to keep the Corp's on the straight and narrow:Unions."

damned skippy. in fact, cheap labor undermines the power of collective bargaining.

as for "fat and lazy": organized labor has been under attack from corporate america since it's inception in this country.; they've been very effective in villifying unions.

"Gets a bite and won't let go until it thunders!"

dude, i just don't like it when people make wild claims. opinions are opinions, and facts are facts. and for rem to question my capacity for debate just fuels my fire.

"look around"! lol! yeah, i can't debate....

Maybe we should dig up Jimmy Hoffa.
They can start by digging on the South lawn of the White House.
Then we re-animate him and put him back to work.
Or better yet, maybe we get Disney to make an animatronic Hoffa and he could organize the robots into a Union! Robot rights! How many million jobs have robots cost Americans? Let's see, outsourcing, mexicans (whoops make that illegal aliens), and robots. The new Trinity of Evil.
Outsourcing: I remember when Lionel Trains outsourced their products to Mexico about 25 years ago. Lasted about 5 years and Lionel damn near went bankrupt. They are firmily back in the USof A now. You can only outsource so much more so long. Like wise, Mexico has a labor shortage these days. No kidding a labor shortage. They are having to increase wages in order to keep people on the job. Just imagine, damn supply and demand interfering with our illegal alien solutions.
But what to do about the robots?
No, better!

Robots for Righteousness!

( ... wait ... we already got that in fotf, he muttered ...
Wrong. Fotf are zombies for zion.
"How many million jobs have robots cost Americans?"

a fellow luddite, eh? i opt for a screw driver over a dewalt every time.

Everytime I hear Luddite I think about the stuff that covers counter tops. That's what happens when dyslexia prevades your brain, sometimes you stop at the wrong bin and load up on the wrong bits of data.
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