Tuesday, November 01, 2005
Senate Dems find backbone
By The Erudite Redneck
Finish the war in Iraq.
But bust the balls of every lying liar who lied to get us there in the first place.
I remember reading in the weeks leading to the Iraq war, in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, how the Bush administration was wrong -- and probably even being misleading.
Lots of stuff about centrifuges and aluminum tubes. Made my eyes glaze over.
I refused to believe it. Though I didn't vote for Bush either time, I gave him and his administration the benefit of the doubt. I was swayed by 9/11 -- and ready to believe the best of my president and the worst of our potential enemies.
Iraq either had, or was trying hard to get the stuff required to go nuclear and we, or our interests -- but really, the intimation was WE, here -- were the target.
The prewident said so. So did others. I believed him.
I reasoned it out this way:
If I KNEW somebody living in a house on the next block had absolute plans to come to my house, rob me and kill me and my family, and I couldn't get the law to do anything about it, why, then, I would feel utterly justified in going over there, busting his door down and shooting first.
That's what happened with Iraq. Only we didn't KNOW it after all, did we?
Partly because the neocons were slobbering over themselves with power. Partly because Judith Miller was the administration's lapdog -- a shame to the news business. Partly because the rest of the press has cut this administration so much slack it's another shame.
Partly because of millions of other fools like me.
But mostly because they lied.
To. Us.
To. Me.
The. Bastards.
Finish the war. Hope for the best for democracy in Iraq. Don't get your hopes up.
Prosecute the liars to the fullest extent of the law. If that means impeachment, bring it on. Those wheels are still oiled from '98.
The Senate Democrats grew a backbone today.
It's about damn time.
Sen. Harry Reid's statement, released before taking the Senate into closed session, is published here in full:
"This past weekend, we witnessed the indictment of I. Lewis Libby, the Vice President's Chief of Staff and a senior Advisor to President Bush. Libby is the first sitting White House staffer to be indicted in 135 years."
The statement continues:
"This indictment raises very serious charges. It asserts this Administration engaged in actions that both harmed our national security and are morally repugnant.
"The decision to place U.S. soldiers in harm's way is the most significant responsibility the Constitution invests in the Congress.
"The Libby indictment provides a window into what this is really about: how the Administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions.
Read all about it.
--ER
Finish the war in Iraq.
But bust the balls of every lying liar who lied to get us there in the first place.
I remember reading in the weeks leading to the Iraq war, in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, how the Bush administration was wrong -- and probably even being misleading.
Lots of stuff about centrifuges and aluminum tubes. Made my eyes glaze over.
I refused to believe it. Though I didn't vote for Bush either time, I gave him and his administration the benefit of the doubt. I was swayed by 9/11 -- and ready to believe the best of my president and the worst of our potential enemies.
Iraq either had, or was trying hard to get the stuff required to go nuclear and we, or our interests -- but really, the intimation was WE, here -- were the target.
The prewident said so. So did others. I believed him.
I reasoned it out this way:
If I KNEW somebody living in a house on the next block had absolute plans to come to my house, rob me and kill me and my family, and I couldn't get the law to do anything about it, why, then, I would feel utterly justified in going over there, busting his door down and shooting first.
That's what happened with Iraq. Only we didn't KNOW it after all, did we?
Partly because the neocons were slobbering over themselves with power. Partly because Judith Miller was the administration's lapdog -- a shame to the news business. Partly because the rest of the press has cut this administration so much slack it's another shame.
Partly because of millions of other fools like me.
But mostly because they lied.
To. Us.
To. Me.
The. Bastards.
Finish the war. Hope for the best for democracy in Iraq. Don't get your hopes up.
Prosecute the liars to the fullest extent of the law. If that means impeachment, bring it on. Those wheels are still oiled from '98.
The Senate Democrats grew a backbone today.
It's about damn time.
Sen. Harry Reid's statement, released before taking the Senate into closed session, is published here in full:
"This past weekend, we witnessed the indictment of I. Lewis Libby, the Vice President's Chief of Staff and a senior Advisor to President Bush. Libby is the first sitting White House staffer to be indicted in 135 years."
The statement continues:
"This indictment raises very serious charges. It asserts this Administration engaged in actions that both harmed our national security and are morally repugnant.
"The decision to place U.S. soldiers in harm's way is the most significant responsibility the Constitution invests in the Congress.
"The Libby indictment provides a window into what this is really about: how the Administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions.
Read all about it.
--ER
Comments:
<< Home
It seems to escaped the notice of the most of the press that Mr. Fitzgerald stated that the "obstruction of justice" by Scooter Libbey was successful. That the actions by Libbey precluded the special counsel from finding out what he needed to know to do his job.
Thus a very high White House official is charged not just lying, but with successful obstruction of justice. The first time in 125 years, since Grant's administration in fact.
Scooter lied in order to protect their lies, and it worked.
What we need to know as American is did they lie to us or lie to themselves.
If they lied to themselves, then they are just guilty of bad judgement and poor governance.
If they lied to us then they have violated their oaths of office and impeachment should be explored.
If they continue to block any effort for us to know which lie is the case, then that is again obstruction of justice. Perhaps not in the legal sense but certainly in the moral and historical sense.
When I fought with the First Infantry in Vietnam in 1969, America was suffering an average of about 50 troops killed a week. Last month the troop death toll on Iraq was about 92, or about 23 a week, and it is rising. Given the size of the forces involved, repeated rotations to Iraq, etc. It is far more dangerous to serve in Iraq today than it was to serve in Vietnam in 1969.
We need to know how we got here.
Thus a very high White House official is charged not just lying, but with successful obstruction of justice. The first time in 125 years, since Grant's administration in fact.
Scooter lied in order to protect their lies, and it worked.
What we need to know as American is did they lie to us or lie to themselves.
If they lied to themselves, then they are just guilty of bad judgement and poor governance.
If they lied to us then they have violated their oaths of office and impeachment should be explored.
If they continue to block any effort for us to know which lie is the case, then that is again obstruction of justice. Perhaps not in the legal sense but certainly in the moral and historical sense.
When I fought with the First Infantry in Vietnam in 1969, America was suffering an average of about 50 troops killed a week. Last month the troop death toll on Iraq was about 92, or about 23 a week, and it is rising. Given the size of the forces involved, repeated rotations to Iraq, etc. It is far more dangerous to serve in Iraq today than it was to serve in Vietnam in 1969.
We need to know how we got here.
# posted by 
: 8:17 AM
: 8:17 AM
Re, "If they lied to themselves, then they are just guilty of bad judgement and poor governance.
If they lied to us then they have violated their oaths of office and impeachment should be explored."
I agree.
--ER
If they lied to us then they have violated their oaths of office and impeachment should be explored."
I agree.
--ER
ER, Can you please explain what you mean when you say "finish the war in Iraq"? Do you really think there is anything US troops can do to bring true peace and stability to Iraq? If so, you must agree with Big Dick Cheney that the insurgency there is in its last throes, right? How many troops died last month? (And this after the ratification of the Iraqi constitution that was supposed to bring political stability, right?) And how many died the month before that? Have we seen a slow down in the daily bombings? Haven't the insurgents just developed new IEDs that penetrate the armor that is finally appearing on the vehicle US troops use? What possibly can our troops do to bring harmony to three ethnic groups that have been at each others' throats for millennia? Maybe you mean that we can't withdraw until we have at least rebuilt the infrastructure of the country that has been destroyed? How do we do that when it keeps getting blown up as fast as we put it back together?
I have heard a number of people say, like you, "Okay, we made a mistake to get into this war, but now that we've done so, we have to finish the job." Well, as you can see, I've got a lot of questions about what that means. I haven't heard a good answer yet (other than the wishful thinking that comes out of Scottie McClellan's mouth), but you are, after all, the Erudite Redneck, so possibly you can oblige me.
I have heard a number of people say, like you, "Okay, we made a mistake to get into this war, but now that we've done so, we have to finish the job." Well, as you can see, I've got a lot of questions about what that means. I haven't heard a good answer yet (other than the wishful thinking that comes out of Scottie McClellan's mouth), but you are, after all, the Erudite Redneck, so possibly you can oblige me.
No, RSB, I can't tell you what I mean. I don't have enough facts -- which is the whole problem.
I guess to get the full Iraq government up and running, and some semblance of an Iraqi army in place. We will never leave totally -- not unless said government and army are literally razed.
To just leave now -- now -- would be the greater wrong.
--ER
I guess to get the full Iraq government up and running, and some semblance of an Iraqi army in place. We will never leave totally -- not unless said government and army are literally razed.
To just leave now -- now -- would be the greater wrong.
--ER
A Modest Proposal:
How to withdraw? How to withdraw before the American public gets so fed up that we have to cut and run, like Vietnam? How can GW do it.
My Advice to the President: With Ideals Stolen from all over.
First you clean out the VP and the VP's office with the proper resignations (if you don't there may be impeachments anyway after 96).
Forget about your damn base who will abandon you at the drop of a hat anyway, as shown in the Miers deal.
You ask McCain to be VP.
Rumsfeld must be asked to go.
Replace Rummy with the likes of Colin Powell or a moderate Democrat.
These actions will buy you the breathing space you need to do the withdrawl before 2008.
Withdrawal:
1. Secretely tell the Iraq government we will start drawing down out troops in three months and will draw down the numbers every three months there after until the end of two years and we will be gone.
2. Draw down first in areas that the Iraq government is strong in and phase out in that fashion. This gives them time and incentive to create their own forces to replace us (so long as we are there they won't do this).
3. Secretely tell our European friends we are leaving. You want to protect that damn OIL you so desperately need, you had better help the new governmnet in Iraq. Secretely tell Syria, if you f... with Iraq anymore we will clandestinely blow up your oil fields and refineries and make it look like extremist did it. Tell Iran you f... with Iraq you will have several, hundred megaton nuclear accidents at your nuclear facilities. Tell Iraq YOU get the help You need from Europe.
4.Be prepared to take our political losses. Let Iraq evolve into whatever damn type of country it wants to be. Don't try to control their oil. Don't try to have middle-eastern military bases on their soil. If a full Iraqi Civil War breaks out walk away instantly and let them know that you will.
5. Tell Saudia Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Russian etc. we are leaving Iraq and concetrating on Afaganistan, and East of there and the real terrorist in other places. If they want stability in their region, then they must help the current Iraq government. (Oh yes, and tell the new head of the U.N., Bill Clinton that he has to do stuff in Iraq as well)
Now, I'm just an old man, a poor boy off the Red River, and the son of a share cropper at that, so what could I possibly know about how this should happen.
But it might work, and if it did it would give the moderate republicans eight years in the White House and control of Congress for some time to come.
As a Democrat I could live with that if this could work.
That will give us the time we need to work on our farm teams to bring our people up to the big time latter.
How to withdraw? How to withdraw before the American public gets so fed up that we have to cut and run, like Vietnam? How can GW do it.
My Advice to the President: With Ideals Stolen from all over.
First you clean out the VP and the VP's office with the proper resignations (if you don't there may be impeachments anyway after 96).
Forget about your damn base who will abandon you at the drop of a hat anyway, as shown in the Miers deal.
You ask McCain to be VP.
Rumsfeld must be asked to go.
Replace Rummy with the likes of Colin Powell or a moderate Democrat.
These actions will buy you the breathing space you need to do the withdrawl before 2008.
Withdrawal:
1. Secretely tell the Iraq government we will start drawing down out troops in three months and will draw down the numbers every three months there after until the end of two years and we will be gone.
2. Draw down first in areas that the Iraq government is strong in and phase out in that fashion. This gives them time and incentive to create their own forces to replace us (so long as we are there they won't do this).
3. Secretely tell our European friends we are leaving. You want to protect that damn OIL you so desperately need, you had better help the new governmnet in Iraq. Secretely tell Syria, if you f... with Iraq anymore we will clandestinely blow up your oil fields and refineries and make it look like extremist did it. Tell Iran you f... with Iraq you will have several, hundred megaton nuclear accidents at your nuclear facilities. Tell Iraq YOU get the help You need from Europe.
4.Be prepared to take our political losses. Let Iraq evolve into whatever damn type of country it wants to be. Don't try to control their oil. Don't try to have middle-eastern military bases on their soil. If a full Iraqi Civil War breaks out walk away instantly and let them know that you will.
5. Tell Saudia Arabia, Jordon, Egypt, Russian etc. we are leaving Iraq and concetrating on Afaganistan, and East of there and the real terrorist in other places. If they want stability in their region, then they must help the current Iraq government. (Oh yes, and tell the new head of the U.N., Bill Clinton that he has to do stuff in Iraq as well)
Now, I'm just an old man, a poor boy off the Red River, and the son of a share cropper at that, so what could I possibly know about how this should happen.
But it might work, and if it did it would give the moderate republicans eight years in the White House and control of Congress for some time to come.
As a Democrat I could live with that if this could work.
That will give us the time we need to work on our farm teams to bring our people up to the big time latter.
# posted by : 1:34 PM
: 1:34 PM
Drlobo, I b'lieve that is the most intelligent comment ever posted here. My Resistol's off to you, Sir.
--ER
--ER
Just as I think I’ve read the most idiotic drivel I’ve ever read, you just keep typing!
# posted by : 3:38 PM
: 3:38 PM
Say ER, are you driveling or am I driveling or do we both be drivelers? Anon, what would you do?
# posted by : 4:03 PM
: 4:03 PM
If this is the same ol' anon who usually gets under my skin, all s/he ever, ever does is bitch. About me. So, I wouldn't expect much, Drlobo, in the way of -- well, anything else.
--ER
--ER
Hey, anon, I'll give yout that. But let's see ...
No answers from the Repubs, except "stay the course." No answers from the Dems, just bitching.
Here's an idea! If the Repubs in leadership of Congress, and the right wing in general, would stop acting like they are the ONLY ones in Congress, and not just the ones in charge, I'll guarantee you the parties together could work out a plan reasonable to all. But as long ass the asshats keep acting the way they are, then "stunts" like the "highjacking" of the Senate yesterday will be necessary.
In the meantime, Harry Reid, for all his eloquence yesterday, let me down with his e-mail today. Beow are excerpts.
" ... and while George Bush attempts to distract the country, he knows CIA leak case is bigger than the indictment of Scooter Libby or Karl Rove. It is about how the Administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions. Now it’s time for President Bush to come clean with the American people.
"Now we know there were no WMDs in Iraq and no connection to the terrorists who attacked America on September 11. Yet Republicans, led by George Bush continue to peddle a disingenuous tale: Claiming we attacked Iraq because of September 11th. Every day that these myths continue to be perpetrated by the White House our country becomes less and less safe.
"George Bush needs to know this failure of leadership cannot continue. He needs to lay out the facts about Iraq and his strategy to achieve military, political and economic success to bring our troops home.
"Join me and tell George Bush: You can no longer mislead Congress and the American people. It’s time for an Iraq success strategy that will bring our troops home. ....
"Sadly, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Republican leaders have never admitted any of their mistakes to either Congress or the American people. According to the National Journal, in a story that was overshadowed last week: 'Vice President Cheney and his chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby . . . decided to withhold crucial documents from the Senate Intelligence Committee in 2004 when the panel was investigating the use of pre-war intelligence that erroneously concluded Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction'
"A cloud also hangs over this Republican-controlled Congress for its unwillingness to hold this Republican Administration accountable for its misdeeds on these issues. What has been the response of this Republican-controlled Congress to the Administration's manipulation of intelligence that led to this protracted war in Iraq? Basically nothing. Did the Republican-controlled Congress carry out its constitutional obligations to conduct oversight? No. Did it support our troops and their families by providing them the answers to many important questions? No. Did it even attempt to force this Administration to answer the most basic questions about its behavior? No.
That is why yesterday I motioned to put the Senate into a special closed session of Congress to force Republicans to discus these important issues of national security. If Republicans will not do their constitutional oversight duty, Democrats will force them to discuss these issues.
"Supporting the troops means providing them a strategy for success. We cannot continue to stay the course in Iraq - we must change the course. America can do better and our brave men and women deserve better.
"Thank you,
"Harry Reid"
YES. WELL WHERE ARE YOUR IDEAS, MR. REID???
Anonymous, you're an ass. I'm as hard on the Dems when they deserve it as I am the Repubs. It's not my fault that the Dems don't earn my wrath as often -- for one, I'm a Dem, and for another the Repubs have all but shut out the loyal opposition in this country, I guess because they've convinced themselves that opposition really is disloyalty. They will rue the day.
--ER
No answers from the Repubs, except "stay the course." No answers from the Dems, just bitching.
Here's an idea! If the Repubs in leadership of Congress, and the right wing in general, would stop acting like they are the ONLY ones in Congress, and not just the ones in charge, I'll guarantee you the parties together could work out a plan reasonable to all. But as long ass the asshats keep acting the way they are, then "stunts" like the "highjacking" of the Senate yesterday will be necessary.
In the meantime, Harry Reid, for all his eloquence yesterday, let me down with his e-mail today. Beow are excerpts.
" ... and while George Bush attempts to distract the country, he knows CIA leak case is bigger than the indictment of Scooter Libby or Karl Rove. It is about how the Administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions. Now it’s time for President Bush to come clean with the American people.
"Now we know there were no WMDs in Iraq and no connection to the terrorists who attacked America on September 11. Yet Republicans, led by George Bush continue to peddle a disingenuous tale: Claiming we attacked Iraq because of September 11th. Every day that these myths continue to be perpetrated by the White House our country becomes less and less safe.
"George Bush needs to know this failure of leadership cannot continue. He needs to lay out the facts about Iraq and his strategy to achieve military, political and economic success to bring our troops home.
"Join me and tell George Bush: You can no longer mislead Congress and the American people. It’s time for an Iraq success strategy that will bring our troops home. ....
"Sadly, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Republican leaders have never admitted any of their mistakes to either Congress or the American people. According to the National Journal, in a story that was overshadowed last week: 'Vice President Cheney and his chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby . . . decided to withhold crucial documents from the Senate Intelligence Committee in 2004 when the panel was investigating the use of pre-war intelligence that erroneously concluded Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction'
"A cloud also hangs over this Republican-controlled Congress for its unwillingness to hold this Republican Administration accountable for its misdeeds on these issues. What has been the response of this Republican-controlled Congress to the Administration's manipulation of intelligence that led to this protracted war in Iraq? Basically nothing. Did the Republican-controlled Congress carry out its constitutional obligations to conduct oversight? No. Did it support our troops and their families by providing them the answers to many important questions? No. Did it even attempt to force this Administration to answer the most basic questions about its behavior? No.
That is why yesterday I motioned to put the Senate into a special closed session of Congress to force Republicans to discus these important issues of national security. If Republicans will not do their constitutional oversight duty, Democrats will force them to discuss these issues.
"Supporting the troops means providing them a strategy for success. We cannot continue to stay the course in Iraq - we must change the course. America can do better and our brave men and women deserve better.
"Thank you,
"Harry Reid"
YES. WELL WHERE ARE YOUR IDEAS, MR. REID???
Anonymous, you're an ass. I'm as hard on the Dems when they deserve it as I am the Repubs. It's not my fault that the Dems don't earn my wrath as often -- for one, I'm a Dem, and for another the Repubs have all but shut out the loyal opposition in this country, I guess because they've convinced themselves that opposition really is disloyalty. They will rue the day.
--ER
RE: "The Libby indictment provides a window into what this is really all about, how this administration manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to sell the war in Iraq, and attempted to destroy those who dared to challenge its actions."
The Libby indictment is about no such thing! The Libby indictment is not even close to that. The special prosecutor, Mr. Fitzgerald, purposely said so. The most powerful paragraph in his statement and his press conference has nothing to do with the war (paraphrased): "If you're for it or against it, if you love it or hate it, if you think it's anything about the war in Iraq in this indictment, I urge you to think again. There's not."
The Libby indictment is about no such thing! The Libby indictment is not even close to that. The special prosecutor, Mr. Fitzgerald, purposely said so. The most powerful paragraph in his statement and his press conference has nothing to do with the war (paraphrased): "If you're for it or against it, if you love it or hate it, if you think it's anything about the war in Iraq in this indictment, I urge you to think again. There's not."
Not about the war? Granted. A "window" into the immoral shenanigans surround the decision to go to war? Damn sure is.
Is. ...
It does depend on what your definition of "is" is -- and this administration "is" a den of vipers, which makes rank-and-file Repubs who remain diliberately blind a bunch of snake handlers.
--ER
Is. ...
It does depend on what your definition of "is" is -- and this administration "is" a den of vipers, which makes rank-and-file Repubs who remain diliberately blind a bunch of snake handlers.
--ER
Mark is partially correct, the indictment was not about the war. It couldn't be because Libby had "obstructed justice" to the point that the.. "Umpire had sand thrown in his eyes". So all the prosecuter could do was to prosecute the guy who "through sand in his eyes". But I disagree with Mark that that remark means that the whole investigation wasn't about the war, it was only the narrow scope of the current indictment that Fitzgerald was refering to that did not directly pertain to the war. Anything else is Republican spin.
Criminal law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt to declare someone guilty. Civil Law only requires a proponderance of guilt. Politics don't require nothing but a good spin.
Hide and watch as Wilson's wife takes Libby and Rove and possibly others in the VP's office to Civil court and win.
As for the politics, well sometimes when I watch this White House I am reminded of the promo-clip used on the Sci-Fi Channel where the guy is pulling at a single hair on his bald head and then the shot pulls back to reveal that he is unraveling himself.
Criminal law requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt to declare someone guilty. Civil Law only requires a proponderance of guilt. Politics don't require nothing but a good spin.
Hide and watch as Wilson's wife takes Libby and Rove and possibly others in the VP's office to Civil court and win.
As for the politics, well sometimes when I watch this White House I am reminded of the promo-clip used on the Sci-Fi Channel where the guy is pulling at a single hair on his bald head and then the shot pulls back to reveal that he is unraveling himself.
# posted by : 11:14 PM
: 11:14 PM
ER, thanks for admitting that both sides of the aisle stinks. Your blinders are starting to come off. D's and R's are cut from the same bolt. After you vote with out using the stamp once, you'll never go back.
# posted by : 1:59 PM
: 1:59 PM
Well, yes, they both so stink. But the party system remains and I think it's unwise to pick and choose across party lines. So, I hold my nose and vote for one of the parties. The one with the D. :-)
--ER
Post a Comment
--ER
<< Home
