Tuesday, October 25, 2005
Worshipping or following?
Below is the Scripture reading from Sunday at the liberal Protestant church I've been attending. I'm not sure I ever noticed the last verse, 40, before, but I'm thinking hard on it right now.
I'm trying to make sense of all the hate and fear pretending to be "love for the sinner (yet hate for the sin)" being demonstrated in Jesus's name.
Near as I can figure, the error comes from concentrating on "worshipping the Christ" at the expense of "following Jesus," which means listening to what he had to say, and imitating him.
Jesus said, "Follow me." Where did he say "Worship me'? (Seriously. I can't find a reference.)
Look a the last verse. What think y'all?
The Greatest Commandment
Matthew 22:34-40 (New International Version)
34. Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
35. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38. This is the first and greatest commandment.
39. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Then there's this (swiped from this site):
John 17:1-11. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world ...
Jesus not in the world? A hard reality facing the church of the late first century as well as the twentieth century. There is the stunning account of Jesus feeding the multitude where, in response to the disciples' anxiety about from whence the food will come, Jesus says, "You feed them!"
The miracle of the multiplication is that what they had is enough. Even if they can't believe it. Even if for two millennia we continue to deny it.
God has no lips but ours with which to speak, no other hands with which to reach out and minister. The incarnational God continues to live in the flesh and walk about our world. God now in us. You and me.
Do we worship Jesus or follow Jesus? Worshiping without following may seem to compensate for his "absence," to keep him alive and well in our midst, still solely responsible for accomplishing things for which we pray. Following him means staying the course that he has set and acting for and with him.
Worshiping only seeks to create a safe haven in a world for which Jesus is liable. Following Jesus takes us to those unsavory places he went, eating with outsiders and outcasts, banqueting with the halt, lame, and blind, lepers and prostitutes.
Following Jesus is taking up the cross he promised and walking with him.
from Forward Day by Day (anonymous Episcopal clergyman) for April 7, 1997.
I have worshipped the Christ, in varying degrees of intensity, since 1972. I don't think I've ever really tried to follow Jesus -- and I think that most of the noise, especially the judgmental, threatening, hateful din coming from the extremes of the right, is neither.
--ER
I'm trying to make sense of all the hate and fear pretending to be "love for the sinner (yet hate for the sin)" being demonstrated in Jesus's name.
Near as I can figure, the error comes from concentrating on "worshipping the Christ" at the expense of "following Jesus," which means listening to what he had to say, and imitating him.
Jesus said, "Follow me." Where did he say "Worship me'? (Seriously. I can't find a reference.)
Look a the last verse. What think y'all?
The Greatest Commandment
Matthew 22:34-40 (New International Version)
34. Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together.
35. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36. "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38. This is the first and greatest commandment.
39. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Then there's this (swiped from this site):
John 17:1-11. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world ...
Jesus not in the world? A hard reality facing the church of the late first century as well as the twentieth century. There is the stunning account of Jesus feeding the multitude where, in response to the disciples' anxiety about from whence the food will come, Jesus says, "You feed them!"
The miracle of the multiplication is that what they had is enough. Even if they can't believe it. Even if for two millennia we continue to deny it.
God has no lips but ours with which to speak, no other hands with which to reach out and minister. The incarnational God continues to live in the flesh and walk about our world. God now in us. You and me.
Do we worship Jesus or follow Jesus? Worshiping without following may seem to compensate for his "absence," to keep him alive and well in our midst, still solely responsible for accomplishing things for which we pray. Following him means staying the course that he has set and acting for and with him.
Worshiping only seeks to create a safe haven in a world for which Jesus is liable. Following Jesus takes us to those unsavory places he went, eating with outsiders and outcasts, banqueting with the halt, lame, and blind, lepers and prostitutes.
Following Jesus is taking up the cross he promised and walking with him.
from Forward Day by Day (anonymous Episcopal clergyman) for April 7, 1997.
I have worshipped the Christ, in varying degrees of intensity, since 1972. I don't think I've ever really tried to follow Jesus -- and I think that most of the noise, especially the judgmental, threatening, hateful din coming from the extremes of the right, is neither.
--ER
Comments:
<< Home
You know you start out to make fairly good sense but then blow it by bringing up "The Right".
# posted by 
: 10:17 AM
: 10:17 AM
Whatever it is you do on Saturday and whatever you do on Sunday is a bad mix. The first of the week you always go off the deep end and mellow as the week goes by. You need a 7 day a week job so you'll be forever happy.
# posted by : 10:31 AM
: 10:31 AM
I've always liked that reading my own self. Not a lot of neighbor-loving going on right now with a lot of Christians, I don't think.
Pastor Timothy, what in god's name do you have against a church that encourages its parishoners to think hard on charity, kindness, and the golden rule?? Would you rather Christians feel smug, certain, and self-assured?
Pastor Timothy, what in god's name do you have against a church that encourages its parishoners to think hard on charity, kindness, and the golden rule?? Would you rather Christians feel smug, certain, and self-assured?
The path of spiritual discovery that you seem to be on would be considered heresy in the Catholic Church and a similar sin in most evangelical circles. You have made a serious distinction between worshiping Jesus and following Jesus. That insight is difficult to come to. If you would like to continue on this path I would recommend Elaine Pagels books The Gnostic Gospels or Beyond Belief. I don't agree with all of Pagels conclusion, but her rendering of the historic struggle between elements of the early Christian Church will be an eye opener.
Here is a partial review of her book, Beyond Belief:
Elaine Pagels, best know for her National Book Award-winning The Gnostic Gospels, wrestles with her own faith as she struggles to understand when--and why--Christianity became associated almost exclusively with the ideas codified in the fourth-century Nicene Creed and in the canonical texts of the New Testament.
At the center of her book is the conflict between the gospels of John and Thomas. Reading these gospels closely, she shows that Thomas offered readers a message of spiritual enlightenment. Rather than promoting Jesus as the only light of the world, Thomas taught individuals that "there is a light within each person, and it lights up the whole universe. If it does not shine, there is darkness." As she eloquently and provocatively argues, the author of John wrote his gospel as a refutation of Thomas, portraying the disciple Thomas as a fool when he doubts Jesus, and Jesus as the only true light of the world. Pagels goes on to demonstrate that the early Christian writer Irenaeus promoted John as the true gospel while he excluded Thomas, and a host of other early gospels, from the list of those texts that he considered authoritative. His list became the basis for the New Testament canon when it was fixed in 357 (A.D.).
Here is a partial review of her book, Beyond Belief:
Elaine Pagels, best know for her National Book Award-winning The Gnostic Gospels, wrestles with her own faith as she struggles to understand when--and why--Christianity became associated almost exclusively with the ideas codified in the fourth-century Nicene Creed and in the canonical texts of the New Testament.
At the center of her book is the conflict between the gospels of John and Thomas. Reading these gospels closely, she shows that Thomas offered readers a message of spiritual enlightenment. Rather than promoting Jesus as the only light of the world, Thomas taught individuals that "there is a light within each person, and it lights up the whole universe. If it does not shine, there is darkness." As she eloquently and provocatively argues, the author of John wrote his gospel as a refutation of Thomas, portraying the disciple Thomas as a fool when he doubts Jesus, and Jesus as the only true light of the world. Pagels goes on to demonstrate that the early Christian writer Irenaeus promoted John as the true gospel while he excluded Thomas, and a host of other early gospels, from the list of those texts that he considered authoritative. His list became the basis for the New Testament canon when it was fixed in 357 (A.D.).
# posted by : 12:26 PM
: 12:26 PM
Three insults, one affirmation, and some advice. Not bad.
Hey, Timmy. I don't struggle because I attend that church. I attend that church because I struggle -- and most churches won't let you do that. They try to pretend that they have all the answers, when they don't, and they depict Jesus as a Super Hero, not as the Mysterious God-Man.
Hey, anon No. 1. Part of my current mission is to do my part to rescue the concept of Jesus from the right-wing, which has kidnapped him and reshaped him in their image.
B, you have nailed it.
Dr. Lobojo, thank you.
--ER
--ER
Hey, Timmy. I don't struggle because I attend that church. I attend that church because I struggle -- and most churches won't let you do that. They try to pretend that they have all the answers, when they don't, and they depict Jesus as a Super Hero, not as the Mysterious God-Man.
Hey, anon No. 1. Part of my current mission is to do my part to rescue the concept of Jesus from the right-wing, which has kidnapped him and reshaped him in their image.
B, you have nailed it.
Dr. Lobojo, thank you.
--ER
--ER
Ler the record show that Timothy apparently considers considered thought about "the Greatest Commandment" to be not "decent" teaching. Astounding.
--ER
--ER
Tim-Bob, you miconstrue lack of solid agreement with yourself as "lack of understanding." Stop.
The verse you quote does not contradict anything I said.
--ER
The verse you quote does not contradict anything I said.
--ER
I have no idea why Pastor Timothy would have objections to this scripture, which is this week's readings from the Common Lectionary used by most churches.
(Here is what is listed in the Common Lectionary:
October 23, 2005
Twenty-Third Sunday after Pentecost (Green)
Deuteronomy 34:1–12
Psalm 90:1–6, 13–17 (UMH 789)
1 Thessalonians 2:1–8
Matthew 22:34–46
It also includes worship helps and a list of hymns appropriate to accompany the text.)
In any event, yes, E.R., too many churches stop before giving the proper emphasis to verse 40.
Perhaps it will help with your further struggles to read through verse 46:
Whose Son Is the Christ
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Christ[c]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies under your feet." '[d] 45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Now there is a lot to be taken from those verses, not the least of which is the notion of worship, separate from following. Even King David, through whose lineage Jesus was born, calls him Lord. That's something he would not do if the Christ were merely a descendant of his own line.
Hope that helps. Verse 40 is really a cornerstone in my own spiritual walk. We don't have to worry about the many, many laws that were written in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself summed it up and said "look, it boils down to these two things. Everything else hangs on this."
(Here is what is listed in the Common Lectionary:
October 23, 2005
Twenty-Third Sunday after Pentecost (Green)
Deuteronomy 34:1–12
Psalm 90:1–6, 13–17 (UMH 789)
1 Thessalonians 2:1–8
Matthew 22:34–46
It also includes worship helps and a list of hymns appropriate to accompany the text.)
In any event, yes, E.R., too many churches stop before giving the proper emphasis to verse 40.
Perhaps it will help with your further struggles to read through verse 46:
Whose Son Is the Christ
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 "What do you think about the Christ[c]? Whose son is he?"
"The son of David," they replied.
43 He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies under your feet." '[d] 45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" 46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Now there is a lot to be taken from those verses, not the least of which is the notion of worship, separate from following. Even King David, through whose lineage Jesus was born, calls him Lord. That's something he would not do if the Christ were merely a descendant of his own line.
Hope that helps. Verse 40 is really a cornerstone in my own spiritual walk. We don't have to worry about the many, many laws that were written in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself summed it up and said "look, it boils down to these two things. Everything else hangs on this."
In other words, I'm not suggesting that people slow down on the worshipping. I AM suggesting that there are a whole lot of people who WORSHIP yet have never followed Jesus anywhere, including myself, for the most part, for most of my life.
I looked at the Presbyterian Web site Timothy recommended. A cursory glance revealed lots about grace, which is great, and lots about presenting the Gospel message, which is great -- but nothing about "following." Which is not great. Nothing about living the Christian life in the world -- just stuff about living the Christian life in the church, which is sort of myopic, when you think about it.
--ER
I looked at the Presbyterian Web site Timothy recommended. A cursory glance revealed lots about grace, which is great, and lots about presenting the Gospel message, which is great -- but nothing about "following." Which is not great. Nothing about living the Christian life in the world -- just stuff about living the Christian life in the church, which is sort of myopic, when you think about it.
--ER
Trixie, the reading actually did include those last verses. I didn't see the connection. Now I sort of do.
--ER
--ER
I've always appreciated Mathew 41-46. Jesus takes the Pharasees logic and ties it in a knot for them. He has to be smiling as he does this, and they really have to be pissd off.
# posted by : 2:45 PM
: 2:45 PM
BTW, I think Drlobojo goes a mite far, though, with the Gnostic Ggospels, although that books sounds interesting. What I'm talking about is more traditional: "Faith without works is dead."
And, Philippians 2:12-13:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, ... work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
And, Salvation in Three Tenses (swiped from somewhere):
Justification: I have been saved from the penalty of sin.
Glorification: I will be saved from the presence of sin.
Sanctification: I am being saved from the power of sin.
Salvation is a dynamic thing! Not a static event. And struggle is a human response to God's grace! Confidence in the Cross -- NOT in my understanding of it.
--ER
And, Philippians 2:12-13:
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, ... work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
And, Salvation in Three Tenses (swiped from somewhere):
Justification: I have been saved from the penalty of sin.
Glorification: I will be saved from the presence of sin.
Sanctification: I am being saved from the power of sin.
Salvation is a dynamic thing! Not a static event. And struggle is a human response to God's grace! Confidence in the Cross -- NOT in my understanding of it.
--ER
ER, I'm not sure what the conflict is. I don't think "worshipping" and "following" are mutually exclusive activities. I try to do both in my life. At times I fail at both, but the struggle to do better is what I think defines a true Christian.
You know I rarely give advice, but this once I'm going to pass this on because it helped me: Stop listening to and responding to those who use the Bible as a club. They can only beat you down if you bow your head before them. None of us can truly know the mind of God. Rejoice in your salvation. Help people around you. Let them see the love and joy of Christ in your life. That's all I think we're really meant to do down here. Enough sermonizing. Talk to you later.
You know I rarely give advice, but this once I'm going to pass this on because it helped me: Stop listening to and responding to those who use the Bible as a club. They can only beat you down if you bow your head before them. None of us can truly know the mind of God. Rejoice in your salvation. Help people around you. Let them see the love and joy of Christ in your life. That's all I think we're really meant to do down here. Enough sermonizing. Talk to you later.
No one here is angry. This is just the usual heat that ensues at the Erudite Redneck Roadhouse. :-)
--ER
--ER
37. Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Most people are comfortable with heart and soul, but once you bring your mind into the equation you make some folks very uncomfortable.
If you don't question, how can you be loving with all your mind? If you do question, you risk being called heretic, or blasphemer.
Good luck with your struggle.
Most people are comfortable with heart and soul, but once you bring your mind into the equation you make some folks very uncomfortable.
If you don't question, how can you be loving with all your mind? If you do question, you risk being called heretic, or blasphemer.
Good luck with your struggle.
I think we've had several versions of discussions about what it means to "follow me" haven't we? I mean, I've "preached" a lot about Jesus' call for us to feed his sheep ... put on your apron and take off your bib...
Matthew 25:34-40 says it all about servanthood:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Matthew had a lot of meaty reading in it; a lot of descriptions about what the Kingdom should look like.
Matthew 25:34-40 says it all about servanthood:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Matthew had a lot of meaty reading in it; a lot of descriptions about what the Kingdom should look like.
Trixie, amen sister, amen.
BTW my "struggle" is ever-present, and has been since 1972. It has taken different forms, over different specifics, at various intensities.
This is me still working through the conviction _- there's a good ol' Baptist word -- I experienced over my previous lack of concern for the poor, after seeing images from Katrina. And my anger -- righteous anger, as far as I'm concerned -- over the dismissive attitude that comes from people who say that because we "shall have the poor" always that we should simply surrender to poverty!
And here is where my regular bashing of "the right" comes in:
I believe with all my heart that Jesus would have me vote for people who want to use the resources of this country for the betterment of most of us, not just some of us. And that means -- horrors! -- some redistribution of wealth -- and that ain't the right wing.
--ER
BTW my "struggle" is ever-present, and has been since 1972. It has taken different forms, over different specifics, at various intensities.
This is me still working through the conviction _- there's a good ol' Baptist word -- I experienced over my previous lack of concern for the poor, after seeing images from Katrina. And my anger -- righteous anger, as far as I'm concerned -- over the dismissive attitude that comes from people who say that because we "shall have the poor" always that we should simply surrender to poverty!
And here is where my regular bashing of "the right" comes in:
I believe with all my heart that Jesus would have me vote for people who want to use the resources of this country for the betterment of most of us, not just some of us. And that means -- horrors! -- some redistribution of wealth -- and that ain't the right wing.
--ER
My bloggy buddy Tech don't drop in much in these types of discussions, but when he do he drops a goodly load of good advice. Sadly, I am incapable of avoiding people who wield the Bible like a sledgehammer.
--ER
--ER
ER said:
"BTW, I think Drlobojo goes a mite far, though, with the Gnostic Ggospels, although that books sounds interesting. What I'm talking about is more traditional: "Faith without works is dead.""
Back in my Southern Baptist days I would have said that you are under "conviction", and that you need to find out what God is calling you to do. But if I said such a thing to you today, Dr. ER would hunt me down and do me away for the disruption of her family life.
The very thing that seems to trouble you so much today, that is the over-reaching of the "Conservative Right", is at the heart of my advice to go back and look at how the political battle as to what is Correct Christianity today was fought for
and who won and how they won. It took them 400 years to win their liturgical political position as to what the Bible is, what it is composed of, and how it should be read. That position has been tenaciously guarded for the past 1600 years by massacres, wars, purges, and inquisitions.
Why?
"BTW, I think Drlobojo goes a mite far, though, with the Gnostic Ggospels, although that books sounds interesting. What I'm talking about is more traditional: "Faith without works is dead.""
Back in my Southern Baptist days I would have said that you are under "conviction", and that you need to find out what God is calling you to do. But if I said such a thing to you today, Dr. ER would hunt me down and do me away for the disruption of her family life.
The very thing that seems to trouble you so much today, that is the over-reaching of the "Conservative Right", is at the heart of my advice to go back and look at how the political battle as to what is Correct Christianity today was fought for
and who won and how they won. It took them 400 years to win their liturgical political position as to what the Bible is, what it is composed of, and how it should be read. That position has been tenaciously guarded for the past 1600 years by massacres, wars, purges, and inquisitions.
Why?
# posted by : 6:17 PM
: 6:17 PM
I am under "conviction" -- I freely admit that, and believe it leads, then parallels, repentence.
But I've long since quit thinking in such grandiose terms as "GOD'S PLAN FOR MY LIFE." I mean, sure, I believe he has one. But I believe every decision I make, however, mundane, affects that plan.
Plus, it's pretty arrogant to think in terms of a "SPECIAL PLAN." I mean, maybe so. But probably not.
My convicton is to do the obvious things that are before me, which I have been neglecting -- or, to which I've been blind.
For example, I think I finally "get" the admonitions against going into debt:
If I have a lot of debt, then I have little to give away.
It's taken me a lifetime to come to that conclusion. It may take me the rest of my life to fix it.
But my debt weights heavy on me in a way it never has before. And, I'm trying harder to turn the ship around, as a result.
"Charity begins at home" -- one of Dr. ER's favorite sayings -- while I don't think it's a quote from Scripture, is a good idea, I think. And I'm trying harder in that realm, as well.
And in the wider world, I am trying to love first, and ask questions later.
That is NOT my nature. I have no desire to do so apart from the unction I get when I shut the hell up and stop listening to most other people, even other Christians, and start listening for smaller, stiller voices -- and useing my head at the same time.
(Obligatory reminder: Blogs are part personal, part public. Y'all are seeing thoughts and feelings as they occur to me. If this makes you upset or uncomfortable, you know where the door is. Use it. :-) )
--ER
But I've long since quit thinking in such grandiose terms as "GOD'S PLAN FOR MY LIFE." I mean, sure, I believe he has one. But I believe every decision I make, however, mundane, affects that plan.
Plus, it's pretty arrogant to think in terms of a "SPECIAL PLAN." I mean, maybe so. But probably not.
My convicton is to do the obvious things that are before me, which I have been neglecting -- or, to which I've been blind.
For example, I think I finally "get" the admonitions against going into debt:
If I have a lot of debt, then I have little to give away.
It's taken me a lifetime to come to that conclusion. It may take me the rest of my life to fix it.
But my debt weights heavy on me in a way it never has before. And, I'm trying harder to turn the ship around, as a result.
"Charity begins at home" -- one of Dr. ER's favorite sayings -- while I don't think it's a quote from Scripture, is a good idea, I think. And I'm trying harder in that realm, as well.
And in the wider world, I am trying to love first, and ask questions later.
That is NOT my nature. I have no desire to do so apart from the unction I get when I shut the hell up and stop listening to most other people, even other Christians, and start listening for smaller, stiller voices -- and useing my head at the same time.
(Obligatory reminder: Blogs are part personal, part public. Y'all are seeing thoughts and feelings as they occur to me. If this makes you upset or uncomfortable, you know where the door is. Use it. :-) )
--ER
Tech alluded to this in his comment above. But worshipping and following are not the same thing.
Here's the prayer of confession from last Sunday:
"Lord of Life, help us to understand the demands of the life of faith. It is not just about worshipping God or loving the neighbor. It is about worshipping God AND loving the neighbor. To be a community of faith is to be drawn to the Mystery. To be a person of faith is to lend a hand to those in need. Help us to do both. In Christ's name we pray, Amen."
--ER
Here's the prayer of confession from last Sunday:
"Lord of Life, help us to understand the demands of the life of faith. It is not just about worshipping God or loving the neighbor. It is about worshipping God AND loving the neighbor. To be a community of faith is to be drawn to the Mystery. To be a person of faith is to lend a hand to those in need. Help us to do both. In Christ's name we pray, Amen."
--ER
I will not attempt to decide for you what is right and what is wrong. That is something you need to work out for yourself. But I do think your anger towards the right is misplaced. The right are not all hypocrites, heretics, or Bible beaters. And the left are not all Demons from the pit of Hell, or the one true church of God. Thankfully, we are a very diverse people.
Maybe I am just paranoid, but I sense that a lot of your righteous indignation is directed towards me, for my audacity to voice an unpopular opinion. Well, My theology, or lack of it, may be flawed. I am, after all, human, and subject to human foibles.
In over 50 years of religious study, I have found only 2 hard, incontrovertible facts:
1. There is a God.
2. I'm not Him.
Apologies to whoever wrote the script of "Rudy", but quite frankly, I could never have articulated it better.
(and yes, I am over 50, and have been a church member since the day I was born, when the cradle roll added my name.)
Maybe I am just paranoid, but I sense that a lot of your righteous indignation is directed towards me, for my audacity to voice an unpopular opinion. Well, My theology, or lack of it, may be flawed. I am, after all, human, and subject to human foibles.
In over 50 years of religious study, I have found only 2 hard, incontrovertible facts:
1. There is a God.
2. I'm not Him.
Apologies to whoever wrote the script of "Rudy", but quite frankly, I could never have articulated it better.
(and yes, I am over 50, and have been a church member since the day I was born, when the cradle roll added my name.)
Mark that’s a very cogent way of putting it. If more people of faith held those two points in their mind we would have a much more compassionate society. If people concentrate on the fact that they are not God I suspect they would be less judgemental and hopefully put more effort into trying to live a good and noble life, “following Jesus” as ER puts it (or “following Allah,” for that matter, if that is their bent!)
Re, "I will not attempt to decide for you what is right and what is wrong. That is something you need to work out for yourself."
Gee, thanks, Mark!
You crack me up. This has nothing to do with you.
Watch the news today, maybe tomorrow, for why I am incensed at the right wing. The leaders of the Republican Party are liars and hypocrites. And I think their politics suck.
Damn straight I'm being judgmental -- about their approach to politics AND their philosophies. And I DO hate 'em. They are a danger to this country.
Oh, wait. I hate the politics, love the politicians. How's that suit ya? (Satire alert).
--ER
Gee, thanks, Mark!
You crack me up. This has nothing to do with you.
Watch the news today, maybe tomorrow, for why I am incensed at the right wing. The leaders of the Republican Party are liars and hypocrites. And I think their politics suck.
Damn straight I'm being judgmental -- about their approach to politics AND their philosophies. And I DO hate 'em. They are a danger to this country.
Oh, wait. I hate the politics, love the politicians. How's that suit ya? (Satire alert).
--ER
drlobojo said:
"It took them 400 years to win their liturgical political position as to what the Bible is, what it is composed of, and how it should be read. That position has been tenaciously guarded for the past 1600 years by massacres, wars, purges, and inquisitions.
Why?"
For those interested in the process drlobojo mentioned, I'd like to suggest Karen Armstrong's A History of God. In it, she traces the history of the idea of God, starting with what we can deduce from prehistory all the way up to the present day. She covers all three religious decendents from Abraham.
I haven't finished reading it, but so far it is answering some of the "why".
"It took them 400 years to win their liturgical political position as to what the Bible is, what it is composed of, and how it should be read. That position has been tenaciously guarded for the past 1600 years by massacres, wars, purges, and inquisitions.
Why?"
For those interested in the process drlobojo mentioned, I'd like to suggest Karen Armstrong's A History of God. In it, she traces the history of the idea of God, starting with what we can deduce from prehistory all the way up to the present day. She covers all three religious decendents from Abraham.
I haven't finished reading it, but so far it is answering some of the "why".
Kiki I'm actually reading that same book at the moment. It is amazing how the idea of God has evolved - and been stretched to all kinds of extremes. Interesting reading, if a little heavy going for the daily commute.
I hope the democrats sweep the entire hill, from the president on down. Then 4 or 5 or 11 years from now you'll see poor people are still poor, hungry are still hungry and all the other bad things are still here. That is unless you trade in your glasses for the rose colored ones you think exist.
# posted by : 4:10 PM
: 4:10 PM
For God's sake, anon. This ain't my first rodeo. I've just picked a side and the right ain't it. Can I do that? Or should I just give up? Or follow you?
--ER
Post a Comment
--ER
<< Home
