Wednesday, October 05, 2005
The War Between the Sons
By The Erudite Redneck
It's come right down to it: In the mail today was a ballot asking me, as a dues-paying member of a local camp of the Sons of Confederate Veterans to vote for one of three options:
1. Maintain the camp's affiliation with the national SCV.
2. Dissolve the camp's affiliation with the national SCV.
3. Maintain minimum affiliation with the national SCV.
Why? Because neo-secessionists have taken over the leadership of the national SCV. Racist fringe elements also are jockeying for power.
In this situation, I and probably most of the rest of the mostly graying membership of the local camp are conservatives. We oppose turning the SCV into a political organization. We want it to stay the same.
We proffer the view that the Confederate dead did what they thought was right, we respect their courage, manhood and military valor, but we do not want to "apply their ideas to modern politics or culture." Grave tending and re-enactments, y'all.
The radicals who have taken over the national SCV promote "the assertive, in-your-face declaration that the Confederacy was a good idea that ought to be adapted today."
Here's a summary of recent events, from the Mountain XPress in Asheville, N.C.:
It's been 139 years since the Civil War ended. But judging by the latest infighting within the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which came to a head at the group's recent national convention in Dalton, Ga., a truce in the long-running cultural war about the meaning of Southern pride may still be generations away.
The nation's pre-eminent Confederate memorial group, the SCV has always led an uneasy existence. But lately, these descendants of rebel soldiers are finding that paying tribute to the "Lost Cause" has become, in some ways, more divisive than ever as they grapple with troubling questions of heritage and hate.
Read all about it.
Here's a backgrounder, "The War Between the Sons," from the same source.
What I don't know is what other subdivisions of the SCV are doing.
My camp is in the Oklahoma Division of the SCV.
It's in the Department of the Army of the Trans-Mississippi.
Here is a link to Indian Territory leaders in the Confederate Army. My own ancestor, though, fought as an infantryman out of Arkansas. He died in 1930 in his 90s; Mama ER, who is 83, remembers him.
I've been ignoring the controversies for the most part, hoping it wouldn't come to this. The Southern Poverty Law Center has always been wary of the SCV, sometimes calling it a hate group. Since so many people associated with the League of the South, a de facto neo-confederate nationalist group, have infiltrated the SCV, should it rightly do so today?
Other history-heritage groups are forming, made up of other disenchanted -- and broken-hearted -- former members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
Damn the radicals. Damn them. I will probably vote to secede from my beloved -- and ruined -- Sons of Confederate Veterans. Secession does run in the family.
END
Comments:
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I'm sorry. I know this gives you pain.
I kinda like the tagline about seceeding, though. Seems kinda good and fitting.
I kinda like the tagline about seceeding, though. Seems kinda good and fitting.
B, that was a very nice thing for you to say, considerin' our previous conversations on similar subjects. :-) ... You should see the righteous indignation in the old graybeards in my camp. They are appalled at the asshats who have hijacked the organization.
ER, I have watched a similar situation develop within the Southern Baptist Convention.
It has since been resolved (to the best of my knowledge.)
I understand your discomfort at the current state of things within your beloved organization, however, these are the times that try men's souls.
Now is the time to decide what you believe in, and stand up tall for it.
I have confidence in you.
It has since been resolved (to the best of my knowledge.)
I understand your discomfort at the current state of things within your beloved organization, however, these are the times that try men's souls.
Now is the time to decide what you believe in, and stand up tall for it.
I have confidence in you.
Oddly enough, a similar thing is happening in the Colonial Dames, which itself is a splinter group of the Daughters of the American Revolution. They're not considering whether or not they should become a militant white supremacist ladies' club, but there are fightin' words indeed being spoke, as related to me this morning by a lady I know.
Funny too, considering I never heard of them at all. Before I started reading your own thing here, ER, I never heard any of that org. you belong to, either. I kept on wanting to say, "You're a son of a confederate soldier? Damn! You ARE old!", or words to that effect. But I didn't.
I'm not especially surprised that the jackasses have hijacked this particular org., though it is a shame, all the same. I had a girlfriend from S. Carolina for a while, and she would discuss the War Between the States like it happened yesterday. But she never wanted the stars and bars on her state flag, since it was the Battle Flag, and not the plain ol' flag of the Confederacy.
The way she saw it, it was not an appeal to heritage so much as it was an appeal to that which is ignorant and small in all of us, specifically in Southerners.
I never once gave her shit about being from the South, but she sure did give me grief about being from the North.
But Oregon's motto is "The Union", as you may know. We were created specifically as a non-slave state. In the minds of the statesmen of the time, this translated as 'no blacks at all', a weird clause that was only eliminated from OR's constitution four years or so ago.
Which certainly made buying a home weird for you if you were black in this state, quite recently.
Funny too, considering I never heard of them at all. Before I started reading your own thing here, ER, I never heard any of that org. you belong to, either. I kept on wanting to say, "You're a son of a confederate soldier? Damn! You ARE old!", or words to that effect. But I didn't.
I'm not especially surprised that the jackasses have hijacked this particular org., though it is a shame, all the same. I had a girlfriend from S. Carolina for a while, and she would discuss the War Between the States like it happened yesterday. But she never wanted the stars and bars on her state flag, since it was the Battle Flag, and not the plain ol' flag of the Confederacy.
The way she saw it, it was not an appeal to heritage so much as it was an appeal to that which is ignorant and small in all of us, specifically in Southerners.
I never once gave her shit about being from the South, but she sure did give me grief about being from the North.
But Oregon's motto is "The Union", as you may know. We were created specifically as a non-slave state. In the minds of the statesmen of the time, this translated as 'no blacks at all', a weird clause that was only eliminated from OR's constitution four years or so ago.
Which certainly made buying a home weird for you if you were black in this state, quite recently.
Ha! I'm actually a son of a daughter of a son of a Confederate vet. :-) Very close genealogically: My mama's daddy's daddy was a Rebel.
--ER
--ER
ER, I agree with you on this one. I like reading about history, and the civil war is one of my favorite historical reads. One of the reasons i like living in this area is the close proximity to so many of the major battlefields of the war, such as Antietam, (Confederates know it as the battle of Sharpsburg, Sharpsburg being in this very county that I live in) and Gettysburg. When I first moved here they were in the process of filming "Gods and Generals" right here in this county.
But I digress. This reminds me of the overblown controversy regarding the Confederate flag being displayed over the SC capitol. Much ado about nothing the way I see it.
It's history. It is not and should not be a political statement.
My daddy's daddy's daddy was a farmer in southern Missouri whose farm was raided by a troop of union soldiers. Before they rode away, they left Great great granddaddy hanging by the neck from a tree limb with a bonfire directly under his bare feet. His wife cut him down before he expired and he went on to die of old age.
But I digress. This reminds me of the overblown controversy regarding the Confederate flag being displayed over the SC capitol. Much ado about nothing the way I see it.
It's history. It is not and should not be a political statement.
My daddy's daddy's daddy was a farmer in southern Missouri whose farm was raided by a troop of union soldiers. Before they rode away, they left Great great granddaddy hanging by the neck from a tree limb with a bonfire directly under his bare feet. His wife cut him down before he expired and he went on to die of old age.
I think I mentioned it once before that I was denied membership to the SCV. My Dad's great-grandfather (his father's father's father) was a major in the Confederate army. My family's farm was large enough that slaves were present. I've never felt guilty for this - it wasn't my doing. After Sherman completed his 'march to the sea', my ancestors packed up what they had left and headed South. What is now considered the 'family homestead' is located in central Florida. It's down to 80 acres and all but the original house will probably be sold off before I inherit any of it. I've got a cousin who is already in the house.
Southern heritage has always been an important part of my family's history. Like you, I can't stand to see hate-mongers wrap themselves in the Confederate battle flag. I used to display a flag proudly outside my home (or apartment, even) and in the back window of my truck. In order to not be associated with the radical elements of society, I brought my flags inside. It's sad that I felt compelled to do this. I'm still a proud Southerner and will fly the flag on occasion, but it is no longer prominently displayed at all times.
I don't get a vote, obviously, but if I did, I'd vote to maintain a minimum relationship with the SCV and see if things won't straighten up. It would be a shame if the SCV became a political body and neglected the historical aspects of our heritage.
Southern heritage has always been an important part of my family's history. Like you, I can't stand to see hate-mongers wrap themselves in the Confederate battle flag. I used to display a flag proudly outside my home (or apartment, even) and in the back window of my truck. In order to not be associated with the radical elements of society, I brought my flags inside. It's sad that I felt compelled to do this. I'm still a proud Southerner and will fly the flag on occasion, but it is no longer prominently displayed at all times.
I don't get a vote, obviously, but if I did, I'd vote to maintain a minimum relationship with the SCV and see if things won't straighten up. It would be a shame if the SCV became a political body and neglected the historical aspects of our heritage.
I think that is the very point of option 3, maintaining minimum affiliation. Maybe I'll vote for that one.
What would happen then is that seven guys would maintain membership in the national SCV (minimum to keep a camp active), while the rest withdrew financial support from the national SVC.
Kind of a last-ditch effort to continue in the struggle while making an important point.
Not unlike a local Southern Baptist church drastically reducing the amount of funds it contributes to the Cooperative Program (it used to be called that; I've been out of SBC circles so long, I don't know now; I still think in terms of the Home Mission Board and Foreign Mission Board; they've changed, too, haven't they?
--ER
What would happen then is that seven guys would maintain membership in the national SCV (minimum to keep a camp active), while the rest withdrew financial support from the national SVC.
Kind of a last-ditch effort to continue in the struggle while making an important point.
Not unlike a local Southern Baptist church drastically reducing the amount of funds it contributes to the Cooperative Program (it used to be called that; I've been out of SBC circles so long, I don't know now; I still think in terms of the Home Mission Board and Foreign Mission Board; they've changed, too, haven't they?
--ER
Secede from the National organizaton. If the State organizations remain you provide the neo-confederates with three needed resources.
1. Your money, in the form of your dues. You can't accomplish much if you don't have the money.
2. The membership numbers. No one will listen to a national organization without many members or without the former confederate states belongin to it.
3. The Emprimature. If you are associated with them you are defacato endorsing what they say and do.
1. Your money, in the form of your dues. You can't accomplish much if you don't have the money.
2. The membership numbers. No one will listen to a national organization without many members or without the former confederate states belongin to it.
3. The Emprimature. If you are associated with them you are defacato endorsing what they say and do.
# posted by 
: 9:54 AM
: 9:54 AM
ER,
I'm not sure if the nomenclature has changed or not. The boards still function the same as far as I know. My church collects an offering specificly allocated to the Cooperative Program after each communion (once a month). Each Christmas, we still have the Lottie Moon offering to support foreign missions and at Easter, the Annie Armstrong Offering for home missions. I don't know the names of the boards, for sure, but I know the offering 'drive' names haven't changed.
I'm not sure if the nomenclature has changed or not. The boards still function the same as far as I know. My church collects an offering specificly allocated to the Cooperative Program after each communion (once a month). Each Christmas, we still have the Lottie Moon offering to support foreign missions and at Easter, the Annie Armstrong Offering for home missions. I don't know the names of the boards, for sure, but I know the offering 'drive' names haven't changed.
Once upon a time I was a Southern Baptist, pre-1970. When the Texas and Georgia State Baptist Conventions began to subvert the SBC in the late 1980's early 1990's I had a close friend who was on the SBC Board of Trustees, so I got a first hand account of the anguish and angst of the changes in the Convention.
A new entity called the Baptist Fellowship was formed by the moderate churches ( now call liberal churches or just plain apostates). It consist of about 25% to 35% of the former SBC churches. Many of the Fellowship churches also continue to participate in the SBC. This is now coming to an impasse in that the Fellowship has applied to the Baptist World Alliance for membership on its own. The BWA said sure, but you have to be totally seperate from the SBC to do so. Now, not all of the Fellowship Churches are separated from the SBC. So the SBC has condemned the BWA as Apostate because it does not want to lose the revenue or the membership of those churches that belong to both the Fellowhip and the SBC.
Now applied to the "Sons" problem: if you are sitting on the fence you are in both camps. That is a balancing act that is uncomfortable and can't be held for long. In the Revolution those dudes were called Mug-Wamps. They had their Mugs on one side of the fence and their Wamps on the other.
A new entity called the Baptist Fellowship was formed by the moderate churches ( now call liberal churches or just plain apostates). It consist of about 25% to 35% of the former SBC churches. Many of the Fellowship churches also continue to participate in the SBC. This is now coming to an impasse in that the Fellowship has applied to the Baptist World Alliance for membership on its own. The BWA said sure, but you have to be totally seperate from the SBC to do so. Now, not all of the Fellowship Churches are separated from the SBC. So the SBC has condemned the BWA as Apostate because it does not want to lose the revenue or the membership of those churches that belong to both the Fellowhip and the SBC.
Now applied to the "Sons" problem: if you are sitting on the fence you are in both camps. That is a balancing act that is uncomfortable and can't be held for long. In the Revolution those dudes were called Mug-Wamps. They had their Mugs on one side of the fence and their Wamps on the other.
# posted by : 10:26 AM
: 10:26 AM
For clarification, the "Mug-Wamps" statement was a reference to chosing option three on the Oklahoma Son's of Confederate Veterans list of things that could be done. The SBC Vs Baptist Fellowship memberships was an example (chosen by previous blog contributors) of what happens when you try to belong to two opposing sides at the same time. Some contributors seemed to think that things had worked out between the two sides when in fact they haven't. That's my way of saying, ER, choosing option three on SCV list would put you eventually in that position.
# posted by : 7:28 PM
: 7:28 PM
As for wamps or wumps it can be either unless your'e specifically talking about a naked lunch, then it is wamps.
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# posted by : 10:52 PM
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