Rev. Erudite Redneck, B.S., B.S., M.A., M.Div.

I must admit it was startling for me to see the end of that prayer. Any concern evaporated during the sermon.

Once again, I left the joint with my heart uplifted, my cheeks wet and my eyes stinging, and my head sore from having my mind pried open.

--ER
 

Well it should concern you. Jesus is the only intercessor that God recognizes. I realize that Catholics believe otherwise, but they are wrong, too.
 

During October our children's Sunday school classes are celebrating "Festivals of Our Friends," learning about Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. As they learn more about our Christian faith and faith traditions, they are given the chance to learn about the differences and similarities we share with four other faiths.
Each week this month they will have authentic worship artifacts, music, crafts and interesting information on one of the faiths. This is presented in a Peace Village which was created by the Episcopal Diocese -- they had six units; we borrowed four.
The more we find out about our friends and their faiths and how they worship, the more we will want to know about being a Christian. In exploring the differences and similarities, our children will be better able to articulate their Christian faith.

Today's unit was on Islam. Two young Muslim women came to share with the children and stayed to share worship with us, so they could learn more about our faith.

We too participated in World Communion Sunday, with Christians all over the world. It's an excellent time to remember we DON'T have all the answers and God is bigger than any box we or our denominations may want to put Him in.
 

And th' Universe help us all from those who feel that they do,in fact, hold drillin' rights to Truth.
Selah.
 

I await Pastor Tim's heartfelt response. Myself, I've spent too much time already looking for what's wrong with other people's faith. We have to find the common ground to put a stop to the killing ground.

I had something of a personal mini-epiphany today regarding the Great Commission. Feel free to enter a discussion with me.

What is it, exactly, that we are to go and teach? Today it occurred to me that we should teach the following:

"This is what we believe." And to then strive to live it.

Very simple. Not "Y'all are wrong." Not "We are right." But "This is what we believe."

Doesn't it make sense that the Prince of Peace would prefer a simple declaration of our own faith, and a simple demonstration of it, rather than either an antagonistic declaration that others are "wrong," or a boastful declaration that we are "right"?

It seems to me that avoiding condemnation, which is God's right alone, and boasting, which also is God's right alone, would do more to prepare hearts for the "still small voice" that accomplioshes grace and does the actual leading of people to Christ.

--ER
 

Elegantly stated, E.R.

And that was one of the main points of our sermon this morning, which, coincidentally, was on the great debate on separation of church and state. My minister's statement was that we should not be so concerned about electing Christians to represent us in government, not nearly so much as we should be concerned that OUR lives reflect our own faith.

Who better to represent our faith than we ourselves? Why should we be looking for others to do that for us? Should not every person we meet see that light within us, and be better for it?

I hope to post more later in the week on that.
 

Awww, I shouldn't have baited you, Pastor Tim. :-)

--ER
 

When faced with the question of whether a particular faith is wrong or right, I have to defer to the words of Jesus Christ, who said, "He who is not with me is against me."

Look, the right faith is any denomination that holds to the divinity and deity of Christ. Any other belief is wrong.

That's not only my belief, that's what God says. If you don't like it, talk to God.
 

Obviously, as a Catholic, I am not qualified to offer an opinion about anything having to do with Christianity, so I guess I'll stay out of this thread.
 

Thanks, B. I'm married to one of y'all, my own self. Consider yourself granted redneck dispensation to weigh in, or not, at your choosing.

Rem, cast your smart-aleck remarks on the water, and they will return to you tenfold.

My 41 years of livin' tells me that the percentage of Catholics who have met God is probably about the same as for Baptists, Presbyterians, Charismatics and other Christian groups: Not nearly as many as Baptists, Presbyterians, Charismatics think.

--ER
 

There was nothing 'smartallecky' about my remarks. I meant them in all earnestness. It is a fact that Catholics will pray to Mary for intercession with the Lord God. Prayers are also offered to 'Saints'. Only God answers prayer. Jesus is THE intercessor between God and man.

And ER, as you tell me all the time, don't read something into what I wrote that isn't there. All I did was point out a flaw in Catholic doctrine. There are others, but I only pointed out one.
 

OK. Yer right. I shouldn't have called you smart-alecky. Sorry about that.

My point is that there are flaws in all churches' doctrines. Every one. There have to be, since flawed humans are involved.

It's too easy to pick on Catholics, who someone recently suggested weren't "Christian" at all, which is so stupid it doesn't deserve a response, other than the one B gave it.

--ER
 

Forgive me "father" for I have sinned. I did not read all the comments before I posted this.

but I visited a great church (not my denomination) that made this communion a real contact with past and present believers. it was great.
 

Still loving bitchphd's response. I'm a recovering Catholic, and that's really all I can add here.
 

I tell you that ACLU....they.....! Ok ok I said i'm done.:) LOL


I have to go along with pastor Tim on this subject. Its not worth it!
I will say I see alot of "humanism" in that prayer, but that is all I will say.
 

What I see is humanity -- not the recently loaded word "humanism" -- and I see humility.

Did you know that the reformers, as in the Reformation, for the most part were humanists? That word, like so many others, has been corrupted.

Glad you came back, Kris. I's sorta afeared you mighta been permanently p.o.'d! :-)

P.S. The eyes of Tejas are upon you. :-)

--ER
 

Rem, really, what good does it do to go around saying "so and so is wrong" and "these are the flaws in such and such a faith," other than to offend people? Do you really think that you know the mind of god? Because to my flaws Catholic mind, that smacks of heresy. I thought the point of faith was humility, and recognition that god's ways and god's judgment are not things that we should presume to assume.

And in any case, like most Protestants I've talked to who trot out the "Catholics pray to saints, and that's wrong" argument, you don't really seem to have much understanding of the Catholic (or at least this Catholic's) view of prayer and sainthood and Marianism and all that. Anti-Catholic prejudice is as old as this nation; older, even. One need only think of the enslavement of the Irish under Cromwell, and the deliberate destruction of so many beautiful old churches by the Puritain forces. Or the "no Irish need apply" signs in American shops at the turn of the 20th century. God knows I am highly critical of the church in a lot of ways--more than you are, probably--but anti-Catholicism offends me, it's been used in some pretty heinous ways in both distant and not-so-distant history, and my hackles will bristle when I see it.
 

On the subject of Catholicism--My first wife's mother was a devout Roman Catholic. In spite of the fact that she was a Paranoid Schizophrenic, when she took her medicine, she was one of the most Christian women I have ever known.

I have no doubt that she is in Heaven today, possibly even sharing a cup of tea with my Baptist father.

No one Christian religion has a monopoly on righteousness.

Not all Christians are Baptist just as not all Baptists are Christians. Or Catholics. Or anyone else.

Being raised in a Church, so to speak, does not make one a Christian any more than being raised in a garage makes one a car.

Oh and Rem? come over to my place and visit. You'll enjoy the fellowship.
 

Melancholic, thank you for introducing me to that beautiful poem.

--ER
 

Discussions just like this one are the very reason that I have for the most part renounced organized religion.

I am a Christian, but I do not necessarilly adhere to any one particular denomination.

I grew up Southern Baptist, but I don't believe that you have to be Baptist to get into Heaven.

Salvation is a very personal thing. A deal worked out between yourself and your Redeemer, Savior, whatever you want to call Him.

You do not really need anyone else's dogma to aquire your Salvation.

All you need is a personal relationship with Christ, according to your own specific needs, and on His terms.

All that Salvation requires is belief in Christ as the Son of God, and your own personal surrender of your life to His purposes.

God gave us all a brain capable of asking questions. If you follow anything unquestioningly, then I believe that you disappoint God.

He does not want slaves, he wants companions.

Do your best.
 

I'm glad you didn't let your distate for the discussion keep you from contributing, Tug! We're mostly together on the basics, it looks like.

I've been starved for koinonia, myself, and I didn't know how much until I started back to to church. That's just me, though.

--ER
 

Dr. B,

I am not (or at least I don't consider myself) anti-Catholic. As for what good it does to say that so-and-so is wrong - well, if you don't point out a fault (real or perceived), how can you address it? Now if somebody wants to defend a position that somebody else thinks is incorrect, and back it up with something, then that would be a good thing. Perhaps a dialogue would open up. Maybe nothing changes at that point. Maybe one person is swayed to the other side. Or maybe both people, through a little research and soul-searching, can reinforce their position and strengthen their own belief. At the very least, an understanding of another's views would come out of such a dialogue.
 

ER,

The past few posts remind me of an 'old' Sammy Kershaw song from the early-to-mid '90's - Politcs, Religion, and Her:

Politics can start a fight,
Religion's hard to know who's right,
and one more topic I won't touch,
that one's her, it hurts too much.
...
...
Let's talk about anything,
anything in this world,
but politics, religion, and her.

How 'bout something fun for the next post?
 

Rem: I consider what you said anti-Catholic, and I explained why. As to this:

As for what good it does to say that so-and-so is wrong - well, if you don't point out a fault (real or perceived), how can you address it? Now if somebody wants to defend a position that somebody else thinks is incorrect, and back it up with something, then that would be a good thing.

I object to the argument that the person who is attacked is under the greater obligation to "back up their position." All you've said is that Catholics and anyone else who doesn't believe the way you do is wrong. I see no argument there; it's merely a tautological statement of faith. There's no point in discussing it, and it's insulting to assume that Catholics (or anyone else) hasn't heard it before.
 

Dr. B,

Admittedly, what I wrote in that particular post was 'clunky'. You are a professor. I do not know in what field you teach. I have never taken a class of yours. I have taken many classes, though. Generally, what I have found, is that when a teacher wishes to begin a dialogue with students, they start by making a statement. A simple statement. This statement is usually not backed up by anything up front. Once the discussion begins, the original statement will be stiffened up.

I was just making a statement. If we had to qualify everything that we said, up front, then very little dialogue would occur. Language would become like 'legalise' that lawyers put into contracts. My original post (#2 on this comment thread) simply pointed out that Catholics pray (as I understand it) to those besides Jesus and God. I said that I believe they are wrong to do so. You may have had/heard this argument many times in your life. In my little corner of the world, I've come into contact with very few Catholics. Most of them were/are like many who profess to be Protestant, in that their parents may have been of that faith, but they couldn't care less what 'their' doctrine was. Therefore, I can truly say that I have never discussed it before.

I don't know what else to say on the subject.
 

ER,
I might get a little p.o.'d at situations and people at times. But staying that way don't get me nowhere.
I still won't allow myself to worship at the altar of "free speech" over our childrens lives.
 

Well, shoot. Now this comments section is workin' and the new one's not. .. Could it be ... SATAN?

--ER