Wednesday, October 26, 2005
Gorbachev: More butter please
Godless commie!
--ER
From The Associated Press
Via KOCO-TV
ADA, Okla. -- Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet Union president and Nobel Peace Prize winner, said eliminating poverty is crucial in the fight against terrorism.
Read all about it.
--ER
From The Associated Press
Via KOCO-TV
ADA, Okla. -- Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet Union president and Nobel Peace Prize winner, said eliminating poverty is crucial in the fight against terrorism.
Read all about it.
Comments:
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He is right. If you want peace, work for justice. Part of that is recognizing all humans' rights and dignity and eliminating poverty in a world God created as infinitely wealthy to meet all human needs.
Sounds good, Trixie...
But i would contend that if you want to eliminate poverty, work for Capitalism.
Everyone working to pull their own weight, to the best of their abilities, without interference from Government, and keepimg the rewards of their own labor, or bearing the consequences of their own decisions.
It is the only way poverty can be eliminated.
THE ONLY WAY.
But i would contend that if you want to eliminate poverty, work for Capitalism.
Everyone working to pull their own weight, to the best of their abilities, without interference from Government, and keepimg the rewards of their own labor, or bearing the consequences of their own decisions.
It is the only way poverty can be eliminated.
THE ONLY WAY.
What a crock, Tugster. We've never ever HAD pure capitalism in this country as a whole, thank God. Because it is heartless as a tornado and as all-consuming as fire.
What you mistake for capitalism is capitalism mixed with socialism, thank God again.
--ER
What you mistake for capitalism is capitalism mixed with socialism, thank God again.
--ER
And as effective as a Hydrogen Bomb.
ER, Capitalism may be heartless, but Socialism CREATES poverty, for EVERYBODY. (Except Government.)
I am reminded of the little boy whose mom caught him "taking matters into his own hands" so to speak.
She said "Don't do that! You'll go blind!"
"Can't I just do it until I need glasses?" he asked...
We in America want to try to do Socialism "just until we need glasses."
It don't work. Robbin Hood was a Thief, ER.
Taking from the Rich, and giving to the Poor is thievery.
Any amount of Socialism depresses economic growth, proportional to the ammount of Socialism we engage in.
ER, Capitalism may be heartless, but Socialism CREATES poverty, for EVERYBODY. (Except Government.)
I am reminded of the little boy whose mom caught him "taking matters into his own hands" so to speak.
She said "Don't do that! You'll go blind!"
"Can't I just do it until I need glasses?" he asked...
We in America want to try to do Socialism "just until we need glasses."
It don't work. Robbin Hood was a Thief, ER.
Taking from the Rich, and giving to the Poor is thievery.
Any amount of Socialism depresses economic growth, proportional to the ammount of Socialism we engage in.
Dammit. I didn't say one blasted word about the economic model necessary (or not necessary) to make it possible. STOP IT. The models we know obviously have not eliminated poverty. We need to look beyond those things.
Man, I just want to slug something or someone now. Thanks a helluva lot.
Man, I just want to slug something or someone now. Thanks a helluva lot.
By the way, I was the one who brought up economics, so slug me. :-)
Forget eliminating poverty. Just respond to it directly. Sure, let's create "programs." But if some of my tax money goes to the military-industrial-political-complex, if some of my tax money goes to subsidies for business, if some of my tax money goes to (fill in the blank of your favorite conservative thing here), then I want more of it to go directly to feed the hungry and house the homeless. And for lots of ther things to improve life for everyday people. Directly.
-- ER P. Long.
Forget eliminating poverty. Just respond to it directly. Sure, let's create "programs." But if some of my tax money goes to the military-industrial-political-complex, if some of my tax money goes to subsidies for business, if some of my tax money goes to (fill in the blank of your favorite conservative thing here), then I want more of it to go directly to feed the hungry and house the homeless. And for lots of ther things to improve life for everyday people. Directly.
-- ER P. Long.
Look again, E.R. Tug is the one who started singing the praises of capitalism.
Sometimes the answers are outside the models we know and have employed as societies. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and take some personal responsibility.
Sometimes, dammit, human rights and dignity can't be properly supported by the pitiful models of capitalism OR socialism OR communism OR any other damm-ism.
Stop fighting about worthless worn-out models and start looking where the answers really are.
Sometimes the answers are outside the models we know and have employed as societies. Sometimes you have to get your hands dirty and take some personal responsibility.
Sometimes, dammit, human rights and dignity can't be properly supported by the pitiful models of capitalism OR socialism OR communism OR any other damm-ism.
Stop fighting about worthless worn-out models and start looking where the answers really are.
This seems to be the time to call your attention to my blog and the version of Isaiah 64 I've posted there from "The Message."
And where are they, Trixie?
Some convoluted mixture of two directly opposed economic systems?
Something else?
I'm all ears...
Some convoluted mixture of two directly opposed economic systems?
Something else?
I'm all ears...
A convoluted mixture of two directly opposed economic systems is what we have in the American economy right now.
The problem is the wrong people are in charge of the government -- and I don't just mean the wrong party.
I mean people who think capitalism needs to have totally free rein -- or a light hand to keep it in check, when it needs a heavy hand!
What the hell do you think it is driving companies, and jobs, overseas? Your vaunted free market.
And the wrong people are in charge of business. Cold-hearted, selfish bastards. Where are the J.P. Morgans? Where are the Carnegies?
God give me one good crop of elitist Yankee turn-of-the-twentieth-century billionaires that recognize that business has to have a conscious.
Bill Gates does some good things. Name some others.
--ER
The problem is the wrong people are in charge of the government -- and I don't just mean the wrong party.
I mean people who think capitalism needs to have totally free rein -- or a light hand to keep it in check, when it needs a heavy hand!
What the hell do you think it is driving companies, and jobs, overseas? Your vaunted free market.
And the wrong people are in charge of business. Cold-hearted, selfish bastards. Where are the J.P. Morgans? Where are the Carnegies?
God give me one good crop of elitist Yankee turn-of-the-twentieth-century billionaires that recognize that business has to have a conscious.
Bill Gates does some good things. Name some others.
--ER
Oh, Trixie, I think I meant I started this by putting up the link in the first place. I made it political with the headline" More butter please," as opposed to guns. That's a politico-economic thing to say. 'Sides that, I wouldn'ta linked it not implying an economic-political context. :-)
--ER
--ER
I'm quite aware of the guns 'n' butter metaphore. But LISTEN to Gorbie. Pay attention to this quote: "We need new thinking."
He is right. You cannot fight terrorism without reducing the chasm between the haves and have nots of the world. And don't be so quick to pat yourselves on your capitalistic backs and say "thank God I'm not one of those poor suckers who has to eat dirt." There's nothing particularly noble or wonderful about being lucky enough to have been born here. There's not a one of us who had any say about being "the chosen." It was just a lucky fluke that we happen to be here instead of there.
The one to be admired will be the one who can live out Matthew 25 and actually quit this meaningless debate. The one model that works already told us how it's done. And yet, who listened? Who acted?
He is right. You cannot fight terrorism without reducing the chasm between the haves and have nots of the world. And don't be so quick to pat yourselves on your capitalistic backs and say "thank God I'm not one of those poor suckers who has to eat dirt." There's nothing particularly noble or wonderful about being lucky enough to have been born here. There's not a one of us who had any say about being "the chosen." It was just a lucky fluke that we happen to be here instead of there.
The one to be admired will be the one who can live out Matthew 25 and actually quit this meaningless debate. The one model that works already told us how it's done. And yet, who listened? Who acted?
Oh my, I hope that liberal Christians who complain about the distortions of right wing fundamentalists of Christ's message aren't going to claim that the constant call to individual action in the Gospels somehow implies involuntary state-sponsored income distribution, even in favor of the poor. That would be a little (you should excuse the expression) rich.
I think that what liberals Christians claim is that liberal Christians should cast votes for people who, using the systems in place, and the possibilitires inherent in our government and way of life, will do the most for the most of us, as opposed to doing the most for a few of us -- and if that means some redistribution of wealth, that's what it mwans, because redistribution of wealth is neither a new thing nor an evil thing in a country where there is loads of wealth to redistribute!
--ER
--ER
A cursory rereading of Matthew 25 suggests that the "convoluted mixture of two directly opposed economic systems" that we have right now in the American economy is fine. I know that chapter is a string of parables -- buit talk about contradictions! Part of the Mystery.
So, again, the problem is not the American system. We just used to be better at acting collectively (through government) than we are now. Everything cycles. We're just in a trough of collective caring now, it seems.
And what about the jobs goin' overseas, y'all? If I could slap the s--- out of William J. Clinton for one thing, SHAFTA would be it.
--ER
So, again, the problem is not the American system. We just used to be better at acting collectively (through government) than we are now. Everything cycles. We're just in a trough of collective caring now, it seems.
And what about the jobs goin' overseas, y'all? If I could slap the s--- out of William J. Clinton for one thing, SHAFTA would be it.
--ER
BTW, I don't believe I'd let myself get sucked into a meaningless debate.
(Tug, some people do not enjoy sparring!)
--ER
(Tug, some people do not enjoy sparring!)
--ER
Taking economic advice from Gorbachev that we need to eliminate poverty is like taking advice from Gordon Liddy on ethics and government. The soviet model in practicallity was to bring everyone down to the same level of near poverty,
If you was a spiritually driven model then look at the one provide by R.G. LeTourneau a major capitalist and the inventor of those large ass earth moving machines used all over the world.
He gave 90% of his before tax income to Christian causes, and still managed to live very very well. Now that ladies and gentlemen is what a "Compassionate Conservative" should mean.
If you was a spiritually driven model then look at the one provide by R.G. LeTourneau a major capitalist and the inventor of those large ass earth moving machines used all over the world.
He gave 90% of his before tax income to Christian causes, and still managed to live very very well. Now that ladies and gentlemen is what a "Compassionate Conservative" should mean.
# posted by 
: 8:18 AM
: 8:18 AM
Tug's all ears because there ain't any gray matter between! Some of us think poverty is a thing to fight and don't rejoice that some poor motherfer has it worse than you. Tugesy should read about the robber barons of the early 19th century to understand that capitalism is just socially acceptable greed. But maybe Tugesy's Bible says that's good for the soul. Tugesy's Bible could say just about anything he wants it to.
# posted by : 9:10 AM
: 9:10 AM
Well, I guess it's time to pull the Constitution back out. Article I, Sec 8:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
To provide for the defense and common welfare of the nation. Not for each individual, but the nation as a whole. No hand outs. No welfare. No New Deal. Defense and security.
If you want to give your money away, give it away. The poor won't appreciate it - they'll probably blow it on non-essentials. If you don't work for it, you can't properly appreciate it. I work for my money and I don't like what the government does with it now. I sure don't want to see them give even more away to those who don't have as much.
Another thing jumps out at me from the above section - all taxes are supposed to be uniform. There should be no graduated tax burden. Shoot, there shouldn't even be an income tax.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States
To provide for the defense and common welfare of the nation. Not for each individual, but the nation as a whole. No hand outs. No welfare. No New Deal. Defense and security.
If you want to give your money away, give it away. The poor won't appreciate it - they'll probably blow it on non-essentials. If you don't work for it, you can't properly appreciate it. I work for my money and I don't like what the government does with it now. I sure don't want to see them give even more away to those who don't have as much.
Another thing jumps out at me from the above section - all taxes are supposed to be uniform. There should be no graduated tax burden. Shoot, there shouldn't even be an income tax.
Very Remlike. :-)
I am not willing to throw away 200-odd years of experience and jurisprudence to get "back" to a Constitution we've never abandoned.
No New Deal? We'd all be wearing red armband with swastikas.
Pshaw.
--ER
I am not willing to throw away 200-odd years of experience and jurisprudence to get "back" to a Constitution we've never abandoned.
No New Deal? We'd all be wearing red armband with swastikas.
Pshaw.
--ER
Negative ER. Germany couldn't even muster enough of a navy to invade England. How were they going to conquer the US?
I shouldn't have said swastikas, because I didn';t mean Germany. I mean our own homegrown facsists.
--ER
--ER
That's another thing altogether. Could be you're right. The conditions here weren't quite as bad as in Germany at that time, but I'll bet it was closer than I think. It would have made some very fertile ground. But I don't think an American Hitler could have risen to power. Hitler staked everything on nationalism. By playing to the greatness of Germany's past and the sense of 'being German', he was able to hoodwink the masses. America was still too young at that point in time. There was no history to take pride in. There was still alot of melting going on in the great melting pot. It is conceivable, however, that the Union could have once again fractured - and not necessarily along the Mason-Dixon line, though that would have been the prime location. Could make for a good historical fiction novel.
I don't know. I've seen books on 'if the South won', or 'if Germany won'. I've never seen/read 'what if there was no New Deal'. Unless you take it in the direction you pointed to, it doesn't sound worth pursuing. But maybe there is one (more than one) out there.
Ooh, ooh! No New Deal? The Plains Indians go on the warpath again and reclaim the Great Plains! Holy crap! I am writin' that book.
--ER
--ER
ER,
The Indians don't have to go on the Warpath to reclaim the Great Plains. All they have to do is wait for trickle down economics, out sourcing, and climate change to depolulate the Great Plains. It is happening even as we speak. The great prophet Wevoka predicted as much back in the 1880's and it is all coming true.
The Indians don't have to go on the Warpath to reclaim the Great Plains. All they have to do is wait for trickle down economics, out sourcing, and climate change to depolulate the Great Plains. It is happening even as we speak. The great prophet Wevoka predicted as much back in the 1880's and it is all coming true.
# posted by : 12:27 PM
: 12:27 PM
I agree Drlobojo. But don't you think some good fiction could be made out these two or three planks:
There was no New Deal.
Dust Bowl migrations were even more severe.
Wovoka religion rekindles.
Five Civilized Tribes, led by elite mixed-heritage types work with (or use) Plains tribes as footmen in the new panIndian movement.
Mexico gets involved on the side of the Indians.
...
?
--ER
There was no New Deal.
Dust Bowl migrations were even more severe.
Wovoka religion rekindles.
Five Civilized Tribes, led by elite mixed-heritage types work with (or use) Plains tribes as footmen in the new panIndian movement.
Mexico gets involved on the side of the Indians.
...
?
--ER
Go for it. Don't forget to add violence and sex however. Oh yes, and through in a conspiracy and constituional crisis.
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# posted by : 10:43 PM
: 10:43 PM << Home
