Tuesday, September 06, 2005
'Personal responsibility'
I have some questions.
Wasn't it "personal responsibility" that got us in trouble in the first place?
Assuming the Creation myth is just that, a myth meant to give meaning -- or even literally true, whatever, I don't care -- wasn't it "personal responsibility" that caused Adam and Eve trouble?
Didn't they personally assume the responsibility of breaking the one lil ol' marchin' order God had laid down?
Isn't "community responsibility" what Christianity is all about? Whether it's the community of Christians or Christians acting within the wider communities that surround them?
Isn't community responsibility one of the things that Alexis de Toqueville praised this country for? (Yes, it is.)
Doesn't the very concept of government, in this country, rest on the concept of "We, the People" -- not "I, me and mine"?
So, why did righties scoff and hoot and laugh when Hillary Clinton put words to something a lot of know in our hearts, and in our own experience: "It takes a village to raise a child"?
Isn't that right out of the Gospel? Isn't it right out of our own national culture and history?
"Personal responsibility!" is just another way of saying, "I got mine, you get yours," or, "I was able to save myself, hope you can do the same."
Isn't it?
Won't relying on "personal responsibility," according to the main plank of Christianity that most Christians agree on, land you in hell in the next life?
Won't insisting on "personal responsibility" of our friends and neighbors when they are in the direst of straits keep them in a kind of hell on this earth?
Since the Right seems to thrive on this concept of "personal responsibility" -- wearing it like a badge of honor -- is it too much to ask it of our leaders, especially the righty ones who so espouse the concept?
Most lefties, some liberals and a few moderates realize it take "We, the People," not just a bunch of "I's" to do anything worthwhile. But we should ask them to be personally accountable, as well, since the political leadership of the national government has pretty much made that the rhetorical price of admission to get into the national discussion. Yes.
But isn't it OK to demand more "personal responsibility" from the ones who have harped on it so much?
I think so.
Posted in response to my conservative blog bud TugboatCapn at Trucker Philosophy.
--ER
Wasn't it "personal responsibility" that got us in trouble in the first place?
Assuming the Creation myth is just that, a myth meant to give meaning -- or even literally true, whatever, I don't care -- wasn't it "personal responsibility" that caused Adam and Eve trouble?
Didn't they personally assume the responsibility of breaking the one lil ol' marchin' order God had laid down?
Isn't "community responsibility" what Christianity is all about? Whether it's the community of Christians or Christians acting within the wider communities that surround them?
Isn't community responsibility one of the things that Alexis de Toqueville praised this country for? (Yes, it is.)
Doesn't the very concept of government, in this country, rest on the concept of "We, the People" -- not "I, me and mine"?
So, why did righties scoff and hoot and laugh when Hillary Clinton put words to something a lot of know in our hearts, and in our own experience: "It takes a village to raise a child"?
Isn't that right out of the Gospel? Isn't it right out of our own national culture and history?
"Personal responsibility!" is just another way of saying, "I got mine, you get yours," or, "I was able to save myself, hope you can do the same."
Isn't it?
Won't relying on "personal responsibility," according to the main plank of Christianity that most Christians agree on, land you in hell in the next life?
Won't insisting on "personal responsibility" of our friends and neighbors when they are in the direst of straits keep them in a kind of hell on this earth?
Since the Right seems to thrive on this concept of "personal responsibility" -- wearing it like a badge of honor -- is it too much to ask it of our leaders, especially the righty ones who so espouse the concept?
Most lefties, some liberals and a few moderates realize it take "We, the People," not just a bunch of "I's" to do anything worthwhile. But we should ask them to be personally accountable, as well, since the political leadership of the national government has pretty much made that the rhetorical price of admission to get into the national discussion. Yes.
But isn't it OK to demand more "personal responsibility" from the ones who have harped on it so much?
I think so.
Posted in response to my conservative blog bud TugboatCapn at Trucker Philosophy.
--ER
Comments:
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"Unless we hang together, assuredly we shall all hang separately"
Or, more concisely, "No man is an island."
Or, more concisely, "No man is an island."
B, Ben Franklin and John Dunne...lol, rare when I recognise the authors of 2 quotes.
Paul Simon said, "I am a rock, I am an island."
Hmmm which is it?
Just funnin'
ER, You asked, "Won't relying on "personal responsibility," according to the main plank of Christianity that most Christians agree on, land you in hell in the next life?"
The answer is Yes. God gave us all, as you know, free will. That means we are free to not obey Him or obey Him and, by so doing, we either condemn ourselves to Hell or elevate ourselves to Heaven.
And that is where personal responsibility cames in. We are all ultimately responsible for our own choices. And if we choose to separate ourselves from God, we likewise choose our own consequences.
Paul Simon said, "I am a rock, I am an island."
Hmmm which is it?
Just funnin'
ER, You asked, "Won't relying on "personal responsibility," according to the main plank of Christianity that most Christians agree on, land you in hell in the next life?"
The answer is Yes. God gave us all, as you know, free will. That means we are free to not obey Him or obey Him and, by so doing, we either condemn ourselves to Hell or elevate ourselves to Heaven.
And that is where personal responsibility cames in. We are all ultimately responsible for our own choices. And if we choose to separate ourselves from God, we likewise choose our own consequences.
But if one relies on one's own pitiful "goodness," one will fry like a Jimmie Dean sausage on a griddle. That's what I was talking about.
And, actually, Mark, there are hundreds-year-old theological discussions over whether one, by oneself, is even capable of "making a decision" to answer God's call, absent His specific grace to do even that. In fact, I believe one whose faith is expressed, "I believe, therefore ..." may very well be fooled.
NOTHING is as easy about Christian faith, which, actually, is one thing, following Jesus being another. Calvin -- and I don't quote Calvin very much -- insisted that it was the duty of all to obey God regardless of whether they were saved. Not to gain salvation, but because it was the right thing to do. God being God and all.
And, actually, Mark, there are hundreds-year-old theological discussions over whether one, by oneself, is even capable of "making a decision" to answer God's call, absent His specific grace to do even that. In fact, I believe one whose faith is expressed, "I believe, therefore ..." may very well be fooled.
NOTHING is as easy about Christian faith, which, actually, is one thing, following Jesus being another. Calvin -- and I don't quote Calvin very much -- insisted that it was the duty of all to obey God regardless of whether they were saved. Not to gain salvation, but because it was the right thing to do. God being God and all.
Actually no, Personal responsibility is not what Christianity is about. It may have been what the Old Testament was about but that is for Jews. Christians, if they actually follow the teachings of Jesus (few do) they will see that it doesn't matter why someone is poor, why they are hungry, why then need a home; it's your job to help them attain these things, not ask questions as to what mistakes have led them to these situations. It’s sort of like the forgiveness thing; if Christians are supposed to be forgiving, which they are (turn the other cheek) then it doesn't matter what people did in the past if you can help them (and convert them) in the present.
Of course what do I know; I am just some agnostic who has read more of the Bible than most Christians.
Of course what do I know; I am just some agnostic who has read more of the Bible than most Christians.
God gave Adam and Eve more than one "marching order," by the by.
You could look at it this way, ER, being personally prepared leaves you open to help others that CAN'T prepare. If I'm prepared, that leaves me available to do God's work instead of waiting to be on the receiving end.
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the hurricane zone that truly don't have some component needed to be prepared for their brand of regional disaster. However, I'm also sure there are a lot that could have given up a small something in order to be able to put together a 72-hour bug-out kit. Honest, it really doesn't take much to put a few supplies together, and if you plan ahead, you won't find yourself trying to do it all at once.
Those that can do more, should do more, absolutely. We store more water than is needed for our family. (The suggested amount is two weeks supply for times you don't have to leave home.) We were blessed with additional storage, so we use it, rather than discard it or let it sit empty. Why do we store more than we need? So we can give to someone else in need. I would never judge why they might need it, I'd just share.
I do joke with my ward members that if I end up having to share with them after all the effort to help them be prepared, that I reserve the right to lecture them while I feed them. ;)
I think you need to look at it more as "individual responsibility." A community is made up of individuals (check the dictionary), and the better prepared the individuals, the better prepared the community.
I absolutely think there are a lot of people in leadership that have a lot of explaining to do, but I'm trying to not "Monday-morning quarterback" until all the details come to light. Hindsight is 20/20, and people aren't perfect, but I don't think we're far enough away from it yet to have 20/20 focus.
You could look at it this way, ER, being personally prepared leaves you open to help others that CAN'T prepare. If I'm prepared, that leaves me available to do God's work instead of waiting to be on the receiving end.
I'm sure there are plenty of people in the hurricane zone that truly don't have some component needed to be prepared for their brand of regional disaster. However, I'm also sure there are a lot that could have given up a small something in order to be able to put together a 72-hour bug-out kit. Honest, it really doesn't take much to put a few supplies together, and if you plan ahead, you won't find yourself trying to do it all at once.
Those that can do more, should do more, absolutely. We store more water than is needed for our family. (The suggested amount is two weeks supply for times you don't have to leave home.) We were blessed with additional storage, so we use it, rather than discard it or let it sit empty. Why do we store more than we need? So we can give to someone else in need. I would never judge why they might need it, I'd just share.
I do joke with my ward members that if I end up having to share with them after all the effort to help them be prepared, that I reserve the right to lecture them while I feed them. ;)
I think you need to look at it more as "individual responsibility." A community is made up of individuals (check the dictionary), and the better prepared the individuals, the better prepared the community.
I absolutely think there are a lot of people in leadership that have a lot of explaining to do, but I'm trying to not "Monday-morning quarterback" until all the details come to light. Hindsight is 20/20, and people aren't perfect, but I don't think we're far enough away from it yet to have 20/20 focus.
# posted by 
: 10:38 AM
: 10:38 AM
Toad, I think you got the point but missed the question. You actually are agreeing with what E.R. has posted. He's responding to comments from some who say the victims of the hurricane should have been "personally responsible" for their own safety and for getting out.
Look at his fifth paragraph about community responsibility and you'll see he's saying what you are saying.
Look at his fifth paragraph about community responsibility and you'll see he's saying what you are saying.
Geez Louise, I don’t know how I googled-up and landed here anyway. This is the biggest gaggle of geeks I’ve ever seen, (or read) in my life. This is more like a private chat room than a blog. Heck, Press boy pulls something out of this hind-end, bangs it out and then the other 4 or 5 of you draw straws as to who will disagree. Then the rest of you kiss his butt by dog piling the one in disagreement. Tell me is it straws or do you all have a number and pull one out of a hat?
# posted by : 1:27 PM
: 1:27 PM
Anon, yep, thisd place is a train wreck sometimes. You keep gawkin' and I'll keep pullin' stuff out of buttocks. How's that suit ya?
Well, ER, I guess you and I stirred 'em up a little...
I would like to say that there was no hatred or animosity toward any of the victims intended by my post, I just wondered why looking after yourself was such a low priority to some people who were hit by the storm, when it is such a high priority to me and mine.
We do without things we need so that we can be ready to run if we have to.
I have been racking my brain for ways to help, and have come up with a few.
My family are all doing what we can.
Whatever political leanings you want to assign to Jesus, he never taught that you should become a burden to others, rather that you should prepare yourself to be able to help your fellow man. You cannot do that if you are in need of rescue yourself.
I would like to say that there was no hatred or animosity toward any of the victims intended by my post, I just wondered why looking after yourself was such a low priority to some people who were hit by the storm, when it is such a high priority to me and mine.
We do without things we need so that we can be ready to run if we have to.
I have been racking my brain for ways to help, and have come up with a few.
My family are all doing what we can.
Whatever political leanings you want to assign to Jesus, he never taught that you should become a burden to others, rather that you should prepare yourself to be able to help your fellow man. You cannot do that if you are in need of rescue yourself.
tugboat,
Jesus never said to "prepare yourself so you can be ready to help your fellow man." Instead, he said things like "deny yourself and follow me," "whoever wants to be first must be last," "sell what you own," "leave your house and your family behind," and "give all you have away."
Personal responsibility is not a priority for Jesus. Commitment to following his radical, almost unbelievable commands is.
Jesus never said to "prepare yourself so you can be ready to help your fellow man." Instead, he said things like "deny yourself and follow me," "whoever wants to be first must be last," "sell what you own," "leave your house and your family behind," and "give all you have away."
Personal responsibility is not a priority for Jesus. Commitment to following his radical, almost unbelievable commands is.
Tug, glad to see ya hear. Let's you and me agree never to make it personal, and to always give each other the benefit of the doubt.
My new mission is to challenge the assumptions the Right makes about Christianity, and especially, Jesus, what he taught and the example he gave. I find it hard to base ANYTHING on what Jesus did NOT say or did NOT do, though.
Dana. Thanks for that.
--ER
My new mission is to challenge the assumptions the Right makes about Christianity, and especially, Jesus, what he taught and the example he gave. I find it hard to base ANYTHING on what Jesus did NOT say or did NOT do, though.
Dana. Thanks for that.
--ER
Again, "My new mission is to challenge the assumptions the Right makes about Christianity, and especially, Jesus, what he taught and the example he gave. I find it hard to base ANYTHING (that, anything about Jesus) on what Jesus did NOT say or did NOT do, though."
The Old Testament? Only insmuch as it points toward Jesus as the spiritual work of Jesus as the fulfillment of the law. Otherwise, it was a Jewish thing, generally, no?
Then there's Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--ER
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The Old Testament? Only insmuch as it points toward Jesus as the spiritual work of Jesus as the fulfillment of the law. Otherwise, it was a Jewish thing, generally, no?
Then there's Romans 8:
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
--ER
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