Tuesday, July 05, 2005
Drollery or trollery?
I've seen the term "troll" used so often now I'm wondering if it's losing its already fuzzy meaning.
If you throw out the term every time a commenter disagrees with you, then I think you overuse it.
In fact, the first time I saw the term, someone else used it in describing someone who was disagreeing with the general direction a thread was going. And I thought, "So?" On the other hand, a jerk is a jerk, whether s/he is a "troll" or not. So, I'm not sure I get the distinction.
And if your regular readers are all so much of the same mind that any outlier causes a major disruption, then maybe your readership is unhealthily narrow. Maybe. Hell, around here, almost anyone of us could point at any other of us and holler "troll!" at one time or another.
What do y'all think?
Here's the beginning of a definition for "internet troll":
In the context of the Internet, a troll is a message that is inflammatory or hostile, which by effect or design causes a disruptions in discourse, or a person posting such messages. Trolling can be described as a breaching experiment, which, because of the use of an alternate persona, allows for normal social boundaries and rules of etiquette to be tested or otherwise broken, without serious consequences.
Read all about it.
--ER
If you throw out the term every time a commenter disagrees with you, then I think you overuse it.
In fact, the first time I saw the term, someone else used it in describing someone who was disagreeing with the general direction a thread was going. And I thought, "So?" On the other hand, a jerk is a jerk, whether s/he is a "troll" or not. So, I'm not sure I get the distinction.
And if your regular readers are all so much of the same mind that any outlier causes a major disruption, then maybe your readership is unhealthily narrow. Maybe. Hell, around here, almost anyone of us could point at any other of us and holler "troll!" at one time or another.
What do y'all think?
Here's the beginning of a definition for "internet troll":
In the context of the Internet, a troll is a message that is inflammatory or hostile, which by effect or design causes a disruptions in discourse, or a person posting such messages. Trolling can be described as a breaching experiment, which, because of the use of an alternate persona, allows for normal social boundaries and rules of etiquette to be tested or otherwise broken, without serious consequences.
Read all about it.
--ER
Comments:
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A troll isn't just a person who disagrees with what others say. A troll is someone who gets his or her kicks from using anonymity to be mean-spirited and disruptive. Part of the play of a troll is to be completely unreasonable and as offensive as possible in their dealings with others -- in other words, there is no possibility of having meaningful conversation with a troll. They will bait people, targeting certain posters for outright attack. At first, others may think that they have an inside track into the workings of the troll's mind, and will try to come to a civilized understanding with the troll. The troll may lure them in -- for a moment. Then they will make a victim of that person as well.
Trolls are just nasty. They aren't around to present an alternative viewpoint or discourse. They often will hide out in a community long enough to see what individuals' hot buttons or weak spots are, and then will specifically attack in those areas, with the intention of causing hurt.
Trolls are just nasty. They aren't around to present an alternative viewpoint or discourse. They often will hide out in a community long enough to see what individuals' hot buttons or weak spots are, and then will specifically attack in those areas, with the intention of causing hurt.
OK. That's what I think, too. Which means I've seen it misused a time or two lately. I think some people meant "drive-by" rather than "troll" -- somebody who parachutes into a thread, looks around and sees a crowd s/he doesn't like, then fires a few rounds and splits.
And here, I always thought it was an ugly little creature that lives under a bridge and eats goats.
I guess under the definitions stated here I have had some "trolls" leaving comments on my blog, and I never knew it. I always thought they were just rude jerks.
I really don't mind if someone pops in and disagrees with me, but I do have to admit, it annoys me when they use hate speech and are generally disrespectful. I make it a point to try to find something, anything, that I can respect about a person, and I always can, regardless of what attitude they display.
I guess under the definitions stated here I have had some "trolls" leaving comments on my blog, and I never knew it. I always thought they were just rude jerks.
I really don't mind if someone pops in and disagrees with me, but I do have to admit, it annoys me when they use hate speech and are generally disrespectful. I make it a point to try to find something, anything, that I can respect about a person, and I always can, regardless of what attitude they display.
Mark, I'd be careful even using the words "Hate" and "Speech" in the same breath, let alone as an actual concept, "hate speech."
That's shorthand for how some groups are trying to lay traps to ensnare those who disagree with them. They would have you believe that "hate speech" should have less protection than plain old everyday speech.
As in, "That homosexual should be ashamed of himself" might be construed as "hate speech" because it appears to be intolerant.
I am absoultely against ANY legislation or judicial decision that recognizes ANYthing approaching the concept of "hate speech."
The fact is, it's permissible in this country, although it might not be smart, wise or kind, to hate religious zealots, academics, snobs, blacks, Jews, rednecks, Repubs, Dems, the French, "towel heads" and anybody else. And it OUGHT to be permissible to say so -- although certain policies, laws and regulations are trimming back our speech rights in that regard.
Acting on such hate is a horse of a different color.
Sorry. Danged if you didn't trip one of my sensitive triggers. :-)
That's shorthand for how some groups are trying to lay traps to ensnare those who disagree with them. They would have you believe that "hate speech" should have less protection than plain old everyday speech.
As in, "That homosexual should be ashamed of himself" might be construed as "hate speech" because it appears to be intolerant.
I am absoultely against ANY legislation or judicial decision that recognizes ANYthing approaching the concept of "hate speech."
The fact is, it's permissible in this country, although it might not be smart, wise or kind, to hate religious zealots, academics, snobs, blacks, Jews, rednecks, Repubs, Dems, the French, "towel heads" and anybody else. And it OUGHT to be permissible to say so -- although certain policies, laws and regulations are trimming back our speech rights in that regard.
Acting on such hate is a horse of a different color.
Sorry. Danged if you didn't trip one of my sensitive triggers. :-)
Ah, but language evolves, does it not? So I think that the original definition of troll is exactly what Trixie's saying; and yeah, if you want to be strict about it, drive-by nastiness might not be trollish. But what's the point of making the distinction? To me, anyone who leaves a comment somewhere solely in order to be an asshole is a troll. As Trixie says, there's no possibility of meaningful conversation there; it's mean-spirited and disruptive; it's often unreasonable and as offensive as possible. Just because someone doesn't hang around to continue their obnoxiousness doesn't mean it's not trollish. IMHO.
So,
"Y'all all arefull of shit," left as a comment, is trollish.
"Y'all all are full of shit and here's why" is not.
And stayin' around to continue a heated discussion means there's nothing trollish about it at all.
That's what I think anyway.
BTW, sometime over the past few days I uttered the phrase, "Are y'all all all right?" I think it was after the fireworks went minorly off. :-) That gets automatic entry into the rednecktionary: "Y'all cubed." ;-)
"Y'all all arefull of shit," left as a comment, is trollish.
"Y'all all are full of shit and here's why" is not.
And stayin' around to continue a heated discussion means there's nothing trollish about it at all.
That's what I think anyway.
BTW, sometime over the past few days I uttered the phrase, "Are y'all all all right?" I think it was after the fireworks went minorly off. :-) That gets automatic entry into the rednecktionary: "Y'all cubed." ;-)
Sorry ER, didn't mean to trip your trigger...what I meant was people who say hateful things for the express purpose of angering someone. I didn't say they didn't have the right to say it. They do, and like I often say, they also have the right to be stupid if they desire. I just think it's not respectful.
Well, I was wondering what all that "drive by" and "troll" was about.
Seems to me that a lot of people I've been talking to on this damn box are quick to call any dissenting opinions one of those two things. I think it's indicative of the kind of thought processes at work there, too, that they went the extra step further and accused me of saying things I wasn't saying.
By the way, your use of 'outlier' in your post makes for the second time that word has come up today. The other one was where my next door neighbor, The Tulsa Kid, was reading the science section of the paper and asked me whether or not I thought it was a real word. I guess so.
Synchronicity is fun, huh?
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Seems to me that a lot of people I've been talking to on this damn box are quick to call any dissenting opinions one of those two things. I think it's indicative of the kind of thought processes at work there, too, that they went the extra step further and accused me of saying things I wasn't saying.
By the way, your use of 'outlier' in your post makes for the second time that word has come up today. The other one was where my next door neighbor, The Tulsa Kid, was reading the science section of the paper and asked me whether or not I thought it was a real word. I guess so.
Synchronicity is fun, huh?
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