Tuesday, June 21, 2005
Southern Baptists, public schools
By The Erudite Redneck
The Southern Baptist Convention -- the actual annual meetin' -- is kickin' off in Nashville. Here's hopin' they stick to the Gospel and the propagatin' thereof, and avoid the kind of crap that makes the baby Jesus cry.
Like this anti-public, anti-education, anti-American resolution similar to last year's resolution calling for the immediate pull out of all children from public schools.
Hopefully, the education committee chairman, who I think is from Oklahoma, is smarter than to let such see the light of day.
1. Running from the world and hidin' kids from it makes for some warped kids woefully unprepared for their eventual encounters with folks with ways different from their own.
2. Last I heard, the public schools had not been exempted from the mission field. Students are allowed to share their faith, as well as their ideas on right and wrong, with others. Removing them is surrender.
So, to steal a wise quote from Redneck philosopher extraordinaire Jeff Foxworthy and apply it to the convention:
"And you know, the thing is, Southerners are as smart as anybody in this country. Our only problem is we just can't keep the most ignorant among us off the television. That's the truth."
(He continues: "I mean, every time we have a disaster, they never film a doctor or a lawyer. They always get that woman in the mu-mu and the sponge rollers. 'It was pandelerium. I thought we'd be killed or even worse. I looked out the window to see the Jenkins' house go right over our roof. All I could think was Caroline still has my caserole dish.'"
--ER
(Whose name has done been wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life, and remains on the rolls of a Southern Baptist church, although he has been estranged therefrom for years, havin' flirted with Methodism and most recently with Congregationalism.)
The Southern Baptist Convention -- the actual annual meetin' -- is kickin' off in Nashville. Here's hopin' they stick to the Gospel and the propagatin' thereof, and avoid the kind of crap that makes the baby Jesus cry.
Like this anti-public, anti-education, anti-American resolution similar to last year's resolution calling for the immediate pull out of all children from public schools.
Hopefully, the education committee chairman, who I think is from Oklahoma, is smarter than to let such see the light of day.
1. Running from the world and hidin' kids from it makes for some warped kids woefully unprepared for their eventual encounters with folks with ways different from their own.
2. Last I heard, the public schools had not been exempted from the mission field. Students are allowed to share their faith, as well as their ideas on right and wrong, with others. Removing them is surrender.
So, to steal a wise quote from Redneck philosopher extraordinaire Jeff Foxworthy and apply it to the convention:
"And you know, the thing is, Southerners are as smart as anybody in this country. Our only problem is we just can't keep the most ignorant among us off the television. That's the truth."
(He continues: "I mean, every time we have a disaster, they never film a doctor or a lawyer. They always get that woman in the mu-mu and the sponge rollers. 'It was pandelerium. I thought we'd be killed or even worse. I looked out the window to see the Jenkins' house go right over our roof. All I could think was Caroline still has my caserole dish.'"
--ER
(Whose name has done been wrote in the Lamb's Book of Life, and remains on the rolls of a Southern Baptist church, although he has been estranged therefrom for years, havin' flirted with Methodism and most recently with Congregationalism.)
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ER: I am a Southern Baptist, but you are right. Pulling all the children out of public school is impratical, and many many Southern Baptists don't have the funds or the time, or the smarts readily available to home school their kids. I have to take exception to one thing you said though. You said: Students are allowed to share their faith, as well as their ideas on right and wrong, with others. Removing them is surrender.
unfortunately that is no longer true in this country. The ACLU has pretty effectively removed most religious (and by that, I mean christian) expression from the public schools which is probably why the SBC suggested we remove the kids in the first place. There are horror stories all across our country of children who have been punished, suspended, expelled and even sued simply for expressing their love for Jesus Christ in school. check out the American Center for Law and Justice for proof of that.
unfortunately that is no longer true in this country. The ACLU has pretty effectively removed most religious (and by that, I mean christian) expression from the public schools which is probably why the SBC suggested we remove the kids in the first place. There are horror stories all across our country of children who have been punished, suspended, expelled and even sued simply for expressing their love for Jesus Christ in school. check out the American Center for Law and Justice for proof of that.
And by the way, the article you linked to said: According to the SBC Council on Family Life Report of 2002, 88% of those Southern Baptist children after graduating from government high school are leaving the church, never to return." I don't know how accurate the percentages here are but I have seen this effect first hand. I taught my children right and wrong, but due mostly to the influences of the other children in his school, i now have one child, at 20 yrs of age, in jail for the 3rd time.
This is one of those moments I am embarassed to be a Southern Batist. I thank they eben give "Southern" a bad name.
If they iz the salt and light of the world, then you take 'em outta the world, then you got salt that has lost its affectiveness in a bright room doin' nobudy no good.
Keep them whipper snappers in them public schools to be light and salt. Heck, from 5th grade on I was in them publlic schools, went to a public (state) college and taught for 4 years in one of them inner city public schools. And despite what people say you can get chu a good edumacation in them public schools. But like anywhere, if the person don't motivate themselves to learn they'll stay stupid all their lives!!!
(PS I could proally go Methodist, if they weren't so darn liberal. But that may not bother you too much. I do like the heart-to-God-hand-to-man philosophy taken by them Methodist. Big huge fan of Wesley himself)
If they iz the salt and light of the world, then you take 'em outta the world, then you got salt that has lost its affectiveness in a bright room doin' nobudy no good.
Keep them whipper snappers in them public schools to be light and salt. Heck, from 5th grade on I was in them publlic schools, went to a public (state) college and taught for 4 years in one of them inner city public schools. And despite what people say you can get chu a good edumacation in them public schools. But like anywhere, if the person don't motivate themselves to learn they'll stay stupid all their lives!!!
(PS I could proally go Methodist, if they weren't so darn liberal. But that may not bother you too much. I do like the heart-to-God-hand-to-man philosophy taken by them Methodist. Big huge fan of Wesley himself)
Somebody will have to show me an actual correlation between attendance at a public school and a drop-off in church attendance. 'Cause just making it look there is a correlation ain't the same thing as there being one.
As far as the ACLU or ANYBODY coming down on individual kids for sharing their faith with other individial kids, outside of a structured presentation or a class, I doub't it, although there are always extemes and abberations. But I'll check out that site.
As far as the ACLU or ANYBODY coming down on individual kids for sharing their faith with other individial kids, outside of a structured presentation or a class, I doub't it, although there are always extemes and abberations. But I'll check out that site.
As I suspected, blog buddy Mark, you are confusing organized Christian activity with the free-speech rights that ALL individual students STILL have to share their faith at school. This is from the U.S. Department of Education, via the American Center for Law and Justice:
United States Department of Education Guidelines on Religious Expression in Public Schools
Student prayer and religious discussion: The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment does not prohibit purely private religious speech by students. Students therefore have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity. For example, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray before tests to the same extent they may engage in comparable nondisruptive activities. Local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and other pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.
Generally, students may pray in a nondisruptive manner when not engaged in school activities or instruction, and subject to the rules that normally pertain in the applicable setting. Specifically, students in informal settings, such as cafeterias and hallways, may pray and discuss their religious views with each other, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other student activities and speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics. School officials, however, should intercede to stop student speech that constitutes harassment aimed at a student or a group of students.
Students may also participate in before or after school events with religious content, such as "see you at the flag pole" gatherings, on the same terms as they may participate in other noncurriculum activities on school premises. School officials may neither discourage nor encourage participation in such an event.
The right to engage in voluntary prayer or religious discussion free from discrimination does not include the right to have a captive audience listen, or to compel other students to participate. Teachers and school administrators should ensure that no student is in any way coerced to participate in religious activity.
United States Department of Education Guidelines on Religious Expression in Public Schools
Student prayer and religious discussion: The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment does not prohibit purely private religious speech by students. Students therefore have the same right to engage in individual or group prayer and religious discussion during the school day as they do to engage in other comparable activity. For example, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray before tests to the same extent they may engage in comparable nondisruptive activities. Local school authorities possess substantial discretion to impose rules of order and other pedagogical restrictions on student activities, but they may not structure or administer such rules to discriminate against religious activity or speech.
Generally, students may pray in a nondisruptive manner when not engaged in school activities or instruction, and subject to the rules that normally pertain in the applicable setting. Specifically, students in informal settings, such as cafeterias and hallways, may pray and discuss their religious views with each other, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other student activities and speech. Students may also speak to, and attempt to persuade, their peers about religious topics just as they do with regard to political topics. School officials, however, should intercede to stop student speech that constitutes harassment aimed at a student or a group of students.
Students may also participate in before or after school events with religious content, such as "see you at the flag pole" gatherings, on the same terms as they may participate in other noncurriculum activities on school premises. School officials may neither discourage nor encourage participation in such an event.
The right to engage in voluntary prayer or religious discussion free from discrimination does not include the right to have a captive audience listen, or to compel other students to participate. Teachers and school administrators should ensure that no student is in any way coerced to participate in religious activity.
Garza, a good friend of mine is a Southern chicken-fried Baptist turned Eastern Orthodoz. Been meanin' to check it out. Thrills me that the Head Hacienda for his outfit is on "the street that is Straight" in Antioch.
Thank you for telling the truth. Christian students of whatever flavor absolutely do have the right to practice their faith, as do students of any other religion. This hokum about students being deprived their rights really boils my blood. And the knee-jerk reactions of any of the denominations, based on such hooey, REALLY ticks me off.
It really would make the Baby Jesus cry to hear such lies being told in His name. As you said in Point 2 above, there's still a rich mission field in our everyday lives, including schools. Let's not forget that souls are won, one-on-one. If your child shares his faith with a classmate on the playground, or over lunch, count it as a victory. Don't be hiding their testimony in a home-schooling situation or charter school where everyone already has heard the Gospel.
And as to the drop-off of church attendance: I think if you look at honest numbers you will see that young adults of all types tend to have a falling away after high school; it's the prodigal years. They return to the church, usually, as they mature. Raise a child in the way he should go, AND WHEN HE IS OLD he shall not depart from it. Even God knew there's a time for faith to be tested. Remember the 40 days in the desert?
It really would make the Baby Jesus cry to hear such lies being told in His name. As you said in Point 2 above, there's still a rich mission field in our everyday lives, including schools. Let's not forget that souls are won, one-on-one. If your child shares his faith with a classmate on the playground, or over lunch, count it as a victory. Don't be hiding their testimony in a home-schooling situation or charter school where everyone already has heard the Gospel.
And as to the drop-off of church attendance: I think if you look at honest numbers you will see that young adults of all types tend to have a falling away after high school; it's the prodigal years. They return to the church, usually, as they mature. Raise a child in the way he should go, AND WHEN HE IS OLD he shall not depart from it. Even God knew there's a time for faith to be tested. Remember the 40 days in the desert?
Preach on, Sister! You and me should take it on the road. Me and my GIT-ar, you and yer hand bells. We could play for love offerings. :-)
You are absolutely right, ER. those rights ARE guaranteed us by the constitution, unfortunately, there are many people, teachers, administrators, and other parents that don't see it that way, and that is precisely why the ACLJ was established, to defend those students in the event that someone misinterprets the constitution. And believe me, they have a full case load.
Mark, that is why it's called "the world." Just 'cause we get saved-sanctified-gloried-chicken-fried and loaded up on to the Big Bus to Glory don't mean it's supposed to be easy, even in this so-called "Christian" country, which it mighta been once but ain't no more.
I agree, ER, but the fact remains that children in our schools are being castigated just for being Christian. I didn't mean to infer that it was legal to do so. What I meant was, it is happening, that's all. And there is no correlation between public schools and dropping attendance in church. That is a problem for which the parents are mostly to blame. Read my Father's day post. My dad MADE me go to church and I'm still glad he did. More parents need to do that.
Mark, there very well could be individual examples of what you say, about Christian students being discouraged. Persecution has always come with the territory. However, I do not believe there is a wholesale effort of the public schools to deny any child their right to practice the religion of their choice.
And of course it is NOT the schools' responsibility to encourage religious practice under any circumstances. That duty and responsibility lies where it always has -- with the parents.
What I am saying is that there is nothing that sanctions schools to ban religious practices among students, as long as it is not done during instructional time.
Heck, here in Oklahoma you'll see churches that actually use public school space for their congregations on Sunday.
And of course it is NOT the schools' responsibility to encourage religious practice under any circumstances. That duty and responsibility lies where it always has -- with the parents.
What I am saying is that there is nothing that sanctions schools to ban religious practices among students, as long as it is not done during instructional time.
Heck, here in Oklahoma you'll see churches that actually use public school space for their congregations on Sunday.
Yes. there are schools here also that use public school space to hold Sunday services. And in some places the ACLU has brought suit against them, too, saying it is a constitutional violation of the "separation of church and state". What they aren't saying, which they very well know, is that there is no such provision in the constitution.
And they lifted their ban on Disney! Now the stock holders can finally breathe a sigh of relief.
Apparently Disney finally stopped treating homosexuals like people.
Apparently Disney finally stopped treating homosexuals like people.
You don't think the ban was lifted because some Baptist home schoolers wanted to take a class trip to Disneyland?
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