Saturday, November 06, 2004
Church + State = Danger
By The Erudite Redneck
Woe unto the churches in this country that have forgotten what religious persecution is like.
Baptists, especially, who know their own history should be on the watch for any erosion of the precious wall separating church and state. Sadly, most people calling themselves "Baptists" nowadays know no more about the historical travails of their own faith than any other.
I feel comfortable calling out the Baptists -- the Southern, chicken-fried variety especially -- because I still am one, despite an estrangement of some 20 years.
Ahh, but around here, Southern Baptists are the mainstream. As long as that's the case, they have nothin to worry about. But just as long as.
Those with minority views are the ones who should work fervently to keep that wall up -- because it's meant to protect religion from government as well as government from religion.
In 1553, the city-church of Geneva, under John Calvin's influence, convicted Michel Servetus, a Spaniard, of heresy and sentenced him to death. Servetus considered himself a Christian. Some of his views, regarding infant Baptism, were the root of what are now mainstream Baptist views.
The charge:
"The sentence pronounced against Michel Servet de Villeneufve of the Kingdom of Aragon in Spain who some twenty-three or twenty-four years ago printed a book at Hagenau in Germany against the Holy Trinity containing many blasphemies to the scandal of the said churches of Germany, the which book he freely confesses to have printed in the teeth of the remonstrances made to him by the learned and evangelical doctors of Germany. In consequence, he became a fugitive from Germany. Nevertheless he continued in his errors and, in order the more to spread the venom of his heresy, he printed secretly a book in Vienne of Dauphiny full of the said heresies and horrible, execrable blasphemies against the Holy Trinity, against the Son of God, against the baptism of infants and the foundations of the Christian religion. He confesses that in this book he called believers in the Trinity Trinitarians and atheists. He calls this Trinity a diabolical monster with three heads. He blasphemes detestably against the Son of God, saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God from eternity. He calls infant baptism an invention of the devil and sorcery. His execrable blasphemies are scandalous against the majesty of God, the Son of God and the Holy spirit. This entails the murder and ruin of many souls. Moreoever he wrote a letter to one of our ministers in which, along with other numerous blasphemies, he declared our holy evangelical religion to be without faith and without God and that in place of God we have a three-headed Cerberus."
The judgment:
"For these and other ressons, desiring to purge the Church of God of such infection and cut off the rotten member, having taken counsel with out citizens and having invoked the name of God to give just judgment ... having God and the Holy scriptures before our eyes, speaking in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we now in writing give final sentence and condemn you, Michel Servetus, to be bound and taken to Champel and there attached to a stake and burned with your book to ashes. And so shall finish your days and given an example to others who would condemn the like."
Question -- nay, DEFY -- any attempt to merge government and religion in this country!
I don't know that I personally buy into their entire program, but Americans United for the Separation of Church and State has a Web site that explores the issues: http://www.au.org/site/PageServer
END
Woe unto the churches in this country that have forgotten what religious persecution is like.
Baptists, especially, who know their own history should be on the watch for any erosion of the precious wall separating church and state. Sadly, most people calling themselves "Baptists" nowadays know no more about the historical travails of their own faith than any other.
I feel comfortable calling out the Baptists -- the Southern, chicken-fried variety especially -- because I still am one, despite an estrangement of some 20 years.
Ahh, but around here, Southern Baptists are the mainstream. As long as that's the case, they have nothin to worry about. But just as long as.
Those with minority views are the ones who should work fervently to keep that wall up -- because it's meant to protect religion from government as well as government from religion.
In 1553, the city-church of Geneva, under John Calvin's influence, convicted Michel Servetus, a Spaniard, of heresy and sentenced him to death. Servetus considered himself a Christian. Some of his views, regarding infant Baptism, were the root of what are now mainstream Baptist views.
The charge:
"The sentence pronounced against Michel Servet de Villeneufve of the Kingdom of Aragon in Spain who some twenty-three or twenty-four years ago printed a book at Hagenau in Germany against the Holy Trinity containing many blasphemies to the scandal of the said churches of Germany, the which book he freely confesses to have printed in the teeth of the remonstrances made to him by the learned and evangelical doctors of Germany. In consequence, he became a fugitive from Germany. Nevertheless he continued in his errors and, in order the more to spread the venom of his heresy, he printed secretly a book in Vienne of Dauphiny full of the said heresies and horrible, execrable blasphemies against the Holy Trinity, against the Son of God, against the baptism of infants and the foundations of the Christian religion. He confesses that in this book he called believers in the Trinity Trinitarians and atheists. He calls this Trinity a diabolical monster with three heads. He blasphemes detestably against the Son of God, saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God from eternity. He calls infant baptism an invention of the devil and sorcery. His execrable blasphemies are scandalous against the majesty of God, the Son of God and the Holy spirit. This entails the murder and ruin of many souls. Moreoever he wrote a letter to one of our ministers in which, along with other numerous blasphemies, he declared our holy evangelical religion to be without faith and without God and that in place of God we have a three-headed Cerberus."
The judgment:
"For these and other ressons, desiring to purge the Church of God of such infection and cut off the rotten member, having taken counsel with out citizens and having invoked the name of God to give just judgment ... having God and the Holy scriptures before our eyes, speaking in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we now in writing give final sentence and condemn you, Michel Servetus, to be bound and taken to Champel and there attached to a stake and burned with your book to ashes. And so shall finish your days and given an example to others who would condemn the like."
Question -- nay, DEFY -- any attempt to merge government and religion in this country!
I don't know that I personally buy into their entire program, but Americans United for the Separation of Church and State has a Web site that explores the issues: http://www.au.org/site/PageServer
END
Comments:
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You know I am not a highly educated women.
So I my opinion on seperation of Church and
State are pretty simple. They have worked
dang hard to mess up the State of our Nation.
I would really appreciate it if they kept
there poop covered, brown noses out of our
churches. As I see it they are working
really hard to get God completely out of
our nation. They took him out of the schools
and look what is happening.
Yes I know we live in the greatest nation in
the free world. But someone has forgotten how
the heck we got here. BY THE GRACE OF GOD!
So I my opinion on seperation of Church and
State are pretty simple. They have worked
dang hard to mess up the State of our Nation.
I would really appreciate it if they kept
there poop covered, brown noses out of our
churches. As I see it they are working
really hard to get God completely out of
our nation. They took him out of the schools
and look what is happening.
Yes I know we live in the greatest nation in
the free world. But someone has forgotten how
the heck we got here. BY THE GRACE OF GOD!
Welp, I hit a nerve, clearly, but I can't rightly tell which one. :-) ... What "they" are trying to get into the churches? ... One of my points is that I don't want "Him" in the schools, in the way "He" used to be, because who the "He" is depends on who "they" are who run the schools! ... Let's see, Christian prayers are prayed in a school; over time, a majority of Muslims move into a school district; they want the prayers changed so that they are said to Allah; I sure don't want that; but that's a possibility if religion of any kind is sanctioned in the schools! ... And, while I agree that God's grace had something to do with the settlement of this country -- so did European wealth, higher technology, an advanced system of philosophy and economics, and so did the naivete of the native people who were already here, and so did the fact that this continent is one of the richest in natural resources of any of them, and so did the fact that considering the circumstances, it would have taken a bunch of total morons to screw this place up, considering all that the land itself had, and has, going for it. So, sure, God's grace -- and all that other stuff. :-)
Well, you know, the truth is God is bigger than all of this. And no one can remove Him from any place He decides to be or where He decides to do His work through people. We only show the limits of our understanding when we start talking about "getting God out" of anyplace.
Zactly, Trix. It's not God I want to keep out of public schools, it's the wide variety of yahoos claiming to represent him -- ANYone claiming to represent Him. And another truth is, in this country there is no such thing as orthodoxy in religion in the public sphere. So, if you let the mainstream people in -- assuming anyone could even agree on that -- you HAVE to let the yahoos in. Better to keep every dang one of 'em OUT.
I agree with you, E.R. That does NOT infringe on anyone's right to worship. It (in my opinion) simply regulates social conduct in non-religious settings. There is no way any of us can stop any person from praying at any time -- prayer can be silent (and indeed, Jesus teaches us not to be like the hypocrits who love to pray in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. We are to go into our room, close the door and pray to the father who is unseen. Matthew 6:5-6.)
To tell you the truth, I was out on an errand last night and was subjected to screaming street preachers who gather on several corners in my area. All they are doing is screaming at passing cars, calling drivers all kinds of unholy names. No thank you, I do not want to have a child's prayers led in school by such as these.
To tell you the truth, I was out on an errand last night and was subjected to screaming street preachers who gather on several corners in my area. All they are doing is screaming at passing cars, calling drivers all kinds of unholy names. No thank you, I do not want to have a child's prayers led in school by such as these.
ER, did i write that crap? oops, I know where
you are coming from. Our nation will never be
the way it was when I was in school. And should
not be. I guess what scares me the most is I
do not have an answer. Women, Mothers need
to have answers, to be able to fix things.
I do agree with Trixie, God is way bigger
than any of this. And in his great wisdom
knows what is going on even if he does not
share it with me.
Sorry, I think sometimes I just need a beer.
I have only had 2 in going on 10 yrs..
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you are coming from. Our nation will never be
the way it was when I was in school. And should
not be. I guess what scares me the most is I
do not have an answer. Women, Mothers need
to have answers, to be able to fix things.
I do agree with Trixie, God is way bigger
than any of this. And in his great wisdom
knows what is going on even if he does not
share it with me.
Sorry, I think sometimes I just need a beer.
I have only had 2 in going on 10 yrs..
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